Hope After Suicide Loss: Jackie Baker’s Grief Journey

What happens when grief changes everything?

In this heartfelt episode, Jackie Baker joins Jan Johnson to talk about losing her son Sebastian to suicide and the long road of learning how to live again.

Jackie shares the realities of traumatic grief, the stigma surrounding suicide loss, the pressure grieving parents often feel, and how her faith carried her through years of sorrow. Together they discuss lament, identity, marriage, unanswered prayers, and why healing is not about forgetting.

Jackie’s new book, Messy Mourning, offers hope and practical support for grieving mothers and those who love them.

This conversation is compassionate, honest, and deeply healing.

Jackie Baker and Angie Clayton: Walking Beside the Broken-Hearted

https://www.buzzsprout.com/2356821/episodes/15946737

Adoption: Real-Life Stories Navigating Love, Loss and Reunion

https://www.buzzsprout.com/2356821/episodes/15904450

The Complexity of Grief: I Thought God had Abandoned Me

https://www.buzzsprout.com/2356821/episodes/17271183

1. Psalm 34:18
   “The Lord is close to the brokenhearted and saves those who are crushed in spirit.”
2. Psalm 40:1–2
   “He lifted me out of the slimy pit, out of the mud and mire; He set my feet on a rock and gave me a firm place to stand.”
3. Isaiah 43:2
   “When you pass through the waters, I will be with you… when you walk through the fire, you will not be burned.”

00:00 – Introducing Jackie Baker and Messy Mourning
02:20 – Sebastian’s story and the beginning of grief
03:30 – Why suicide loss feels different
05:20 – The “if only” spiral and guilt
06:00 – What grieving people actually need
08:00 – Faith, suffering, and unanswered questions
09:30 – Walking through grief with God
10:45 – How each family member grieved differently
13:45 – Trusting God after devastating loss
15:20 – Scripture, lament, and surviving day by day
17:50 – What Jackie hopes grieving mothers will know
20:50 – Holidays, anniversaries, and grief triggers
22:00 – The tsunami metaphor for grief
23:20 – When grief becomes identity
25:50 – Resources and companion tools for the book
27:00 – Surviving the “firsts” after loss
28:45 – Creating meaningful anniversary traditions
30:40 – Jackie’s Substack and writing about grief
32:00 – Finding laughter and sweetness again

Welcome to Just Talkin' About Jesus.

I'm Jan Johnson, a seasoned believer who loves relationships and, you know, just talkin' about Jesus.

Here you will find testimonies of those who God has changed through his grace.

Stories of feeling unworthy because of being sex trafficked, or of radical redemption of a woman who grew up with abuse, neglect, abandonment and drugs. A story of an abortion survivor. This and more. Lean in now.

Consider subscribing to this podcast, YouTube and Substack- all with the same name: Just Talkin' About Jesus!

https://www.youtube.com/@JustTalkinAboutJesus

https://jan-johnson.com/

https://justtalkingaboutjesus.com/

https://janjohnsonauthor.substack.com/

https://www.youtube.com/@JustTalkinAboutJesus

Thanks for listening!

If you have a story to tell, check out the form on my website- justtalkingaboutjesus.com.

I'd love to connect with you!

No, really.... hit me up!

Transcript

[00:00] Jan: Hey, everybody. I am delighted to have my friend Jackie Baker here. Hi, Jackie.

[00:06] Jackie: Hello, Jen. Nice to see you again.

[00:09] Jan: Jackie's been on two other of my episodes before. We talked once about her son's death by suicide on one of them, and then we had another one where we talked about adoption and her story with adoption.

[00:23] And so this time she has a book out. We're so excited about that.

[00:29] She is. Her book is called Messy Morning.

[00:32] M O U R N I N G Hope for Mothers Grieving the Loss of a Child by Suicide.

[00:39] So after losing her son to suicide, Jackie began writing what she wished she had in the earliest days. Words that make room for grief without rushing it, and faith that can hold honest questions.

[00:51] She's also a pediatric nurse practitioner and writes about grief,

[00:55] faith, motherhood, identity, and healing.

[00:59] So there we go. Just like. You just got it all. Got the whole.

[01:05] Jackie: You name it, I talk about it, right?

[01:07] Jan: Oh, it's pretty exciting that you just published your book. And, you know, when I first met you, you were just talking about writing it and.

[01:16] Jackie: And I'm one of the first. I know someone told me, like, 5% of people that say they're going to write a book,

[01:21] write a book. And I'm like, okay, I did that.

[01:24] I know,

[01:25] I know.

[01:26] Jan: Isn't it great? You know, it is. It is an accomplishment, you know, to.

[01:30] Jackie: There's a lot.

[01:31] Jan: There's so much to it.

[01:32] Jackie: I don't think it is really hard work. Yes, it's. Because it's a lot of alone time, a lot of discipline.

[01:39] You know, you don't. There's no one telling you you're working eight to five. You have to schedule your writing time and,

[01:45] you know, your editing time and your other. All your other time. But, yes,

[01:49] it's a lot of work, but a lot of fun. It's so different from being a nurse practitioner. So I had a. I learned a lot of different things.

[01:55] Jan: Yeah, you could write another book just on nurse practitioner stories.

[01:59] Jackie: Yes. Oh, I have a lot.

[02:03] Jan: Right.

[02:04] Yeah.

[02:05] It's also.

[02:06] And part of it is painful because you have to dredge up your own story from the past. And when you're doing a memoir, I mean, in a sense it's got some memoir in it, you know, because it's a story.

[02:17] But let's start with that. Tell us about your story.

[02:20] Jackie: So my story started in 2017, when my son died by suicide. He'd been struggling with mental health issues probably like four or five years beforehand.

[02:31] And we did the best we could in and out of treatment,

[02:35] psychiatric hospitals, and just made some poor choices.

[02:39] And at the end, I think I always said his brain just couldn't help.

[02:44] His brain was like his worst enemy. And so in 2017, September, we got a knock on the door and it was the police telling us that Sebastian had died.

[02:54] And that started this. This journey that has finally led to this book.

[02:59] But over the last. And now it's been. It's coming on nine years this year.

[03:03] And so since that time, I've learned a lot about grief.

[03:06] I've learned a lot about.

[03:08] There's different types of grief. You know, grief is. It's, it's not linear.

[03:13] It's not.

[03:13] It's not one size fits all.

[03:16] And. And I'm in. I'm in the past. I've lost my mother, I've lost my brother.

[03:20] I've lost, you know, grandparents and friends.

[03:22] But there was something different about losing a child and then losing a child to suicide.

[03:28] And there wasn't any manual out there on how to do that.

[03:32] And so that's why I started writing things that I wish people would have told me or maybe they did tell me. And I've. I've written that as well and put those things, like, what worked, what didn't work,

[03:43] what I found helpful. And so I, I wanted it to put it in a place like as a handbook or a guide for other moms that are. That unfortunately are going to be in a similar situation as myself.

[03:56] Jan: Yeah.

[03:57] Yeah, so much.

[04:00] And as you think through all of those. Those types of things, it is different.

[04:04] I mean, it is way different than just losing a family member.

[04:09] Jackie: Right. And I was, I was comparing. It's like if somebody lost a child to cancer,

[04:13] one, you usually know it's coming and everybody is gathering around the child and what a brave person they are. You know, they. They fought the good fight, right? And then.

[04:24] And then there's something about when they pass away,

[04:28] they've done well, you know, this. Like, they fought that journey. And then if I found. If somebody died by, you know, a car accident, because that happens a lot with young people.

[04:37] It was like, oh, a tragic life lost. And that's, you know, wow, he was young.

[04:41] And then I found the suicide. People are like, oh,

[04:45] you know,

[04:46] it's. It's silence because it's like, what do you say to something? And I found people didn't know what to say, and I didn't know how to respond.

[04:54] Jan: Yeah, well, because there's. There's been a stigma about it. You know, it's like, whose fault was that?

[05:00] Jackie: Right? And you Heard that part of that

[05:02] Jan: is, whose fault was it? Was it your fault? You know, you didn't raise him right or you didn't do the right thing or something. Or, or why couldn't you stop him?

[05:11] Or why couldn't you.

[05:13] Why couldn't, you know, like, there was some way that. That could have been prevented?

[05:18] Jackie: Oh, yeah, we. And we went through all that. It's funny because my husband and I,

[05:22] we talked about that. There's. In my chapter, one of the chapters is called the Laments of the if Onlys. And, you know, if only I had done this. If my husband was like, was I too hard on him?

[05:33] Was I not hard enough?

[05:35] Did I not say the right things? Did I, you know, oh, we. You want. If. If only I had let him come home. If only I had. And I found you just can't go there because one.

[05:45] You can't change the outcome has already happened.

[05:48] And so you can just spin and spin and spin. And I've learned. I just. You have to let go of the. The what ifs and. Because it. It. It's just not helpful at all.

[05:58] Jan: Yeah. Yeah. And what are things that you wish people had said to you?

[06:04] Jackie: I think I. It's funny. My girlfriend, I, who had lost a child and a husband in an accident, we would say we're gonna write a book about stupid things people tell you that you wish they wouldn't have said.

[06:16] You know, And.

[06:19] And I. What I have found is I.

[06:22] Being present with me is so helpful and not saying anything.

[06:27] Sometimes just being there is. Is enough and just allowing at that time, allowing me to talk or not talk, I actually wanted. I think most. I just wanted to talk about Sebastian,

[06:38] you know, And,

[06:39] and,

[06:40] and say, you know, because he's more than just a statistic. He's more than just what he did.

[06:45] Jan: Right.

[06:45] Jackie: And. And so I think that was one of the things that I wish people would allow us to say because knowing what's to bring him up,

[06:54] a lot of people didn't want to, you know, because they were afraid they were going to hurt me. They were afraid, you know, and I'm like, yeah, it is going to hurt, but that's.

[07:01] It's okay,

[07:02] you know,

[07:03] So I think that was one of the big things. Yeah, it was. I wish.

[07:08] And then people,

[07:09] yeah. Don't have to say anything because I feel like they have to say something.

[07:13] And I think saying I don't know what to say is probably like the best thing you can say. Or I'm praying for you. And then please pray.

[07:20] I Think that's the big thing, you know, because you need so much prayer during this time.

[07:25] But yeah, I. Cause I remember once, you know, someone mentioned to me, oh, you know, the divorce rate's really high for children,

[07:31] parents that die by suicide. And I. And it was. It was really recent. And I was just thinking,

[07:37] why are you saying that to me? And it's a well meaning friend who probably didn't know what to say,

[07:43] but that came out and I was just like, oh, thank you, you know, and so I wrote a chapter about why suicide does not have to be the end of a marriage for a couple too,

[07:53] because the statistics are no different than any other,

[07:56] you know, type of loss or trauma.

[07:58] Jan: So.

[07:59] Yeah. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. I remember when my husband had his brain tumor and they're just saying, well, you're just not praying hard enough.

[08:06] Oh, yes. Like, oh, really?

[08:09] So how does that work?

[08:11] How does that work? We're pulling the puppet strings or we're doing right.

[08:15] Jackie: We're not God.

[08:17] Jan: Is there some trick to the way I'm saying my prayers? Or is there, you know, like some. Yeah.

[08:23] Jackie: Some mantra formula? There isn't any. No.

[08:26] Jan: Yeah, no, absolutely.

[08:29] Jackie: And it's like, Job, Job never knew why we knew. We know because we've got the scripture. But Job never knew why he went through the suffering he went through. And he had to be content with God saying, you know, I'm God, you're not.

[08:42] Did you create this? Did you make this? Like, no, no. And,

[08:46] and, and, and that's actually really fun. I was like, oh, yeah, Yeah. I don't know why. And I. I probably will never know this side of heaven. And they're like, okay, but you're in control.

[08:55] You're God. I'm not. So it is that easy, you know?

[09:00] Jan: No,

[09:01] it's not something that happens overnight. It has. It's a process.

[09:05] Grieving is a process. It takes you through so many,

[09:09] so many layers of things that.

[09:13] The normal things, you know,

[09:15] angry or being mad or being,

[09:17] you know, the what ifs or the whys or the,

[09:20] you know, the sorrow or the anger.

[09:24] Jackie: Yeah.

[09:24] Jan: Or resentment or all that.

[09:27] Jackie: Oh, all of it.

[09:29] Jan: Yes.

[09:30] Jackie: And you have to go through it. You can't avoid it.

[09:33] And that's one thing I learned is like, you just have to walk through. That's why they want to talk about the Walking through the valley of the shadow of death.

[09:39] It's like, but I will fear no evil. Because, you know, you, your rod, your staff, they carry you and you're just like, okay, I Used to tell people, I. I'm in this dark tunnel.

[09:47] I know Jesus is with me. I can't see him in the tunnel.

[09:51] But he told me he was there. And I just have to cling to what I know is true and even if you can't see it.

[09:57] And that's what kept me going.

[10:00] Jan: Yeah.

[10:01] And do you know Natasha Smith?

[10:05] So I had another interview with her and I'll put a link of that in the.

[10:10] So she,

[10:12] she had multiple family members that died.

[10:17] Just one that she watched her brother be shot and whatever.

[10:21] Her whole books and podcasts are on grief,

[10:25] but hers is like, will you just sit with me?

[10:29] Jackie: Yeah.

[10:30] Jan: You don't have to say anything. You just have to be there.

[10:34] Jackie: Yeah.

[10:35] Jan: And know that somebody's there.

[10:37] Jackie: Yes.

[10:37] Jan: Have to clean my house. You don't have to do anything. Just either.

[10:41] Jackie: Yep.

[10:46] Jan: Tell me what that was like for your daughter.

[10:51] Jackie: It's. Oh yes, my daughter,

[10:54] she loved her brother.

[10:56] And I, I found.

[10:58] Well, one of the chapters I wrote is called Grief would be easier if it was just me because as we know, everybody grieves differently in a home. And after Sebastian died, I wanted to get rid of all of his clothes right away.

[11:13] My husband didn't want to go in his bedroom and look at the clothes. And my daughter wanted to wear all of his clothes and so very.

[11:22] And she did. She still wears his clothes.

[11:25] It was hard for her.

[11:27] Jan: She.

[11:28] Jackie: She got married like six months after her brother died. She was already engaged. She wasn't engaged.

[11:34] Her now husband came to meet Sebastian and the night that Brennan came to our house, that's the night Sebastian died.

[11:44] So Brennan never got to meet his brother in law, his future brother in law.

[11:49] And so I just remember his character. And I was like, wow, this is a good man. You know, he. Because I'm like, I don't know how to take care of him.

[11:57] You know, I have to take care of all this stuff. And I have this person in my house who I don't know.

[12:02] But the way my daughter dealt with it, I mean, she did get married, you know, in six months. And, And I know a lot of that couple, it's because she loved Brennan,

[12:11] but a lot of it because she was missing her brother. And this, you know, and this was a way,

[12:17] I think, to help with that. And she knows we talked about it, you know, Cause I was like, I, I asked her not to get married.

[12:23] I wanted her to wait at least a year for some. And she's like, no, I can't get. I can't wait.

[12:30] And so so that, that was really hard for. For all of us. I mean, it was a beautiful wedding. She got married in the Columbia River Gorge and she's been married almost nine years now.

[12:39] So they're doing well, praise God, you know,

[12:42] so they are. And then she and her husband, they went to New Zealand to work with Youth with a Mission, Ywam.

[12:49] And served there. And I think that was just helpful for their marriage to be together in another place. It's like a new beginning for her.

[12:57] She was surrounded by other like minded, you know, believers and doing ministry there. And so I was really helpful for her.

[13:03] But she's still, you know,

[13:05] we. She still struggles as we all do, and it was really sweet. She made this beautiful playlist and she called it Sebastian Songs on Spotify. And they were just songs that reminded her of her brother.

[13:17] And it's now like six hours long.

[13:20] And so she plays it all the time. She shared it with me.

[13:23] And so that was just. That's. It's so sweet. And she goes like, this is when we were playing Nintendo and this is when we're.

[13:30] So she has sweet memories of her brother that way.

[13:33] And in fact, one of the resources that I have is a playlist that goes along with the book.

[13:39] And Isabel actually provided all the songs for the playlist that accompanies the book.

[13:45] Jan: Yeah, Some of those would be great ones to have for trust. Trailers. Book trailers.

[13:50] Jackie: Oh, yes. That's what I'm going to use them for.

[13:53] Jan: Yeah. Tell me where, where or how God was with you throughout this.

[14:02] Jackie: Well, like I. I said,

[14:04] you know, like I was in that tunnel and I just knew he was there with me. I remember. So before my son died, there was this very.

[14:12] Some people might not think this, but I.

[14:16] I hear God speak to me, you know, in specific ways.

[14:19] And when Sebastian was 14, I remember I was walking on the beach down by Cannon beach and on the Oregon coast,

[14:26] and I. I just heard the Lord say, are you willing to lay Sebastian on the altar?

[14:32] And. And I was like, it came out of nowhere. So I'm like, this has gotta be from the Lord.

[14:36] And I just remember asking God, what if you don't give him back?

[14:40] And he said, you just have to trust me.

[14:43] And so that was the end of that. But I, you know, always held that close to my heart. What does that mean? What does that mean? I. I thought it meant something to do with Sebastian, but it did.

[14:53] And then when Sebastian died,

[14:56] I remembered that vision, that. Not vision, but, you know, that voice from the Lord. And I was like, oh, it wasn't about Sebastian at all. It was about me trusting you for whatever happens to Sebastian.

[15:09] And I. I took that to heart and I'm like, okay, I have to trust you through this.

[15:14] And so I can honestly say that I could not have gotten through this without the Lord in my life. And,

[15:21] and, and did I want to read my Bible and do that?

[15:24] Jan: No.

[15:24] Jackie: But I started.

[15:25] I would just listen to my Bible every day. I would take a walk every day and just listen to is like the daily Bible app. And then I went through the Bible, like,

[15:35] seven years in a row, just listening. And sometimes I heard things, sometimes I didn't. You know, I'm like, But I just know I was babe bathing my mind with God's word.

[15:45] And so I just like, okay, Lord, you can do this. You can do this. And so I did that.

[15:51] Can you hear that noise or. No, I'm sorry. Okay, great. I was like, wow, that was loud. Sorry.

[15:56] And then.

[15:57] But.

[15:58] But I just sense God's closest to me and especially with my relationship with my husband, too. We just both had to.

[16:06] We were intentional about.

[16:07] We've got to keep our. Our hearts on Jesus and keep praying with him. And we tried to pray every day, and we made ourselves go to church every day. And I just cry every time I went to church and, you know, but it was like, a lot of times it was going through the motions,

[16:22] but I was just trusting that it was going to get me through. And it did, and it does.

[16:28] Jan: Yeah.

[16:29] It's where you go back and you can find,

[16:31] you know, once you're far enough beyond it and you can actually start seeing certain promises. There are things that are in Scripture that just kind of go, oh, yeah, okay.

[16:43] Jackie: Yeah, I. I lived in the Psalms and I would just read. Yeah. I mean, because, oh, my gosh, the Psalms are filled with laments and,

[16:53] you know, anger and frustration and grief and sorrow and joy and, you know, and it's like David's Psalms are like, okay, those are gut wrenching. And I get them now.

[17:06] You know,

[17:07] where can I go from your spirit? You know, where can I go? You know? And he's just like, he is with us the whole time. And even when I'm in the deepest pits, one of my favorite psalms, where it talks about how the Lord reached down from on high and he drew me out of deep waters,

[17:21] out of the deep pit, he said, because he delights in me. I'm like, yeah, he delights in me.

[17:26] Jan: That's enough to bring tears to your eyes. Yeah. He calls me by Name.

[17:32] Jackie: He says. Yes, he does. Yeah, all of those.

[17:38] Jan: But, yeah, the book of Lamentations, Habakkuk, you know.

[17:41] Jackie: Oh, yeah.

[17:42] Jan: Wilderness time. He's gonna restore. You know, it just.

[17:48] Jackie: Yeah, all there. Yeah, it's all there.

[17:51] Jan: It's all there. What's the biggest thing that you hope people will gain from your book?

[17:57] Jackie: What?

[17:58] There's a few things. Well, the big thing that, for moms that are reading this book is that.

[18:05] That they see that there is hope.

[18:07] Even after such a trauma, after such a tragedy of losing a child by suicide.

[18:12] I have seen over the years in my suicide support groups and other ones, it's like year seven, year five. They can't get past it. They get. We get stuck.

[18:23] You know, I think a lot of times our identity becomes our dead child.

[18:28] And I want moms to know that there is hope beyond that, that they don't have to be held hostage by something that,

[18:37] you know, happened to their child.

[18:39] That there is.

[18:40] We can move forward,

[18:41] that we can have a great life despite such a tragedy, and that we know that God is with us and that it doesn't mean we've forgotten our child, because there's no way I forget my son.

[18:52] But I also know that one. He's good,

[18:56] you know, he.

[18:58] He loved Jesus, and he's with Jesus. He's healed and whole, and he's having a great time.

[19:04] I'm kind of mad at him for that. No, because he's doing good. I'm stuck here, you know. But,

[19:09] um, so that's one thing.

[19:11] But I do want moms to know that there is hope and that there is.

[19:15] There is life. To still be living while we're here on this earth and.

[19:20] And not to be stuck. The other thing is to give it a. As a tool for other people that want to know how to help someone who's lost a child to suicide and, you know, give them even just to be able to give.

[19:34] I can give you this book.

[19:36] There's a section in the back of, you know, what to say, how you can help, like, you know, things that are.

[19:42] How to be present in people's lives. And to know that this isn't a short fix,

[19:46] that this is, you know, something that's going to be going on for a while. It's not a one year and done.

[19:52] And. And then also the other thing. I want people to realize that suicidal grief even statistically shows it takes a lot longer to.

[20:01] To recover. I want to say recover, but to feel normal again, like a new normal.

[20:06] It takes like five to seven Years after such a. After any type of tragic loss like that. And then.

[20:12] So when people are like, well, how come you're not over this? It's like, because it's. It's hard. It is not something you.

[20:18] You can get over. I was telling Steve, my husband is like, year seven. I was like,

[20:23] oh, I feel really good now. I mean, but it took seven years,

[20:28] and it was almost like I called it my year of jubilee. When you talk in the Bible, they talk about the seven years, and,

[20:34] you know, you put to your ear to rest. I'm like, oh, it's. It's time to rest after all of this. And it was. It was a very spiritual significance. It's like, wow, this is my year of jubilee, you know?

[20:46] And so I just felt like there was a peace that I hadn't had in such a long time. And I just think there it. Just. Because it does take so long,

[20:55] you know, and I don't. And I still miss my son on all the holidays. And I mean, right now I miss my son during World cup because he's a big soccer fan.

[21:04] And I'm like, I can't talk to Sebastian about this, you know, but.

[21:08] But it's. You know,

[21:10] you live and live, you know, but. Yeah, So I think those are the key things,

[21:14] what I want people to see from that, from the book,

[21:17] and also, you know, give them tools about how to survive the holidays, how to survive the first anniversary, the first Mother's Day,

[21:25] you know, and then it's okay to lament and mourn,

[21:29] because our. Our culture in the United States, we're not very good at allowing people to mourn the way we want to mourn. You know,

[21:37] there's like, some unspoken thing that you should be like, you know, you're year one. You should be done. And why are you still crying? It's like, if you haven't been through it, you can't.

[21:48] You don't know. Yeah.

[21:50] Jan: There's no timeline for agreement. Everyone has their own timeline, and it doesn't matter.

[21:55] Jackie: Yeah.

[21:56] Jan: It doesn't matter how long it takes you and. And where you're at with it. And you can be okay six months, eight months. You're.

[22:03] Jackie: Yeah, whatever.

[22:04] Jan: And then all of a sudden, something happens, or you see somebody looks like them and you're falling apart again. You know, I called it, like, over that.

[22:10] Jackie: Yeah. I used to say it's like living in a. It's like after such a, like, suicidal loss, it's like. Or any type of tragic loss. It's like you're Hit by a tsunami and a tsunami hits you and then, you know, finally when you, when everything gets pulled back, the water recedes.

[22:26] All there is is debris and disaster and, you know,

[22:31] just,

[22:32] it's muck and then you gotta work your way out of it, you know, and it takes time. And then it's like, then the water comes back and you just feel like you're drowning all the time.

[22:42] And then it's like, oh, then you start doggy paddling, you know, and it's

[22:45] Jan: like, oh, I get.

[22:46] Jackie: My head's above water. And then you get hit by another one. And now it's like breaststroking, you know, and every once in a while you get hit by a wave, but it just, you know,

[22:55] it just gets better and better and it's like, okay. And then, but every once those waves come, but not as horrifically as they were before. Yeah, yeah.

[23:04] Jan: Are there certain things you've seen with,

[23:06] I guess, particularly mothers, but in your grief groups or anything that have been the things that have hold. Held them back,

[23:15] you know, five years or longer or whatever,

[23:18] is it, is it an identity? Is it a guilt? Is it what,

[23:22] what kind of things do you. Is there a pattern to things I'm asking?

[23:26] Jackie: Yeah. Well, what I have seen, a lot of it is I think there's a fear of moving on.

[23:33] And if I don't remember my son for him,

[23:38] nobody else will.

[23:39] And it's almost. I see that a lot.

[23:43] I also see it does become our identity. Our dead child is our identity. It's who we are. I'm a mother of a child who died by suicide. And there is something about that, because you do get sympathy.

[23:56] You do get, you know,

[23:58] there is that.

[23:59] But I also think it stunts us from moving forward from what God has for us.

[24:05] So I do see that. I have seen that. And like I'm a grief share leader.

[24:09] And so seeing people getting stuck or just afraid, it's afraid to know if I let go, what's going to happen?

[24:17] What's the worst thing that's going to happen. We find when you let go, you're okay because God has us,

[24:22] you know,

[24:23] and it's hard to let go and to let God. There is something to be said by that, right. The letting go and letting God and,

[24:31] and realizing I'm not in control, I never was in control.

[24:35] And a lot of it is, you know, letting go of that control and that,

[24:39] the stubbornness, the pride, it's all there, you know.

[24:42] Jan: Yeah. And I think like you've kind of alluded to there's different voices that tell us who. Who and how we're supposed to be.

[24:51] Jackie: Right.

[24:52] Jan: You know, like even as a mother,

[24:54] how was I supposed to, you know, I should have,

[24:57] you know, been this kind of mom and.

[25:01] Or you know, whatever it is. Whatever it is. But you hear these voices that are really lies,

[25:06] you know.

[25:06] Jackie: Right.

[25:07] Jan: That are trying to define you or to tell you what direction you're supposed to be going in and.

[25:12] Jackie: Right. You know.

[25:14] Yeah.

[25:15] But I did see that a lot too. Or people would say, oh, you should try this or do this or you know, and it's just.

[25:22] I just had to keep my eyes on Jesus. That's what I would not.

[25:26] Yeah.

[25:27] And a lot of times it was there. There's that term about faking it till you make it. That is so true too. Sometimes you just go through the motions of the day.

[25:35] I meant I got up, I exercised every day. Did I want to? No. I read my Bible or listened to my Bible,

[25:43] you know, I did all those things. Oh yeah. I just couldn't.

[25:48] I couldn't do it. Oh. I mean I couldn't do it on my own. I had to do it with Jesus only.

[25:53] Yeah.

[25:54] Jan: Yeah. For sure. Wow. Where can people find your book?

[25:59] Jackie: Well, right now, two places. Well, if you go on my website, jackiembaker.com, there's a link that'll give you, you know, you can click the link and then it'll get you to the.

[26:09] To Amazon and then there's hardback, Kindle and soft cover there. If you order from my website, you know, if you go, I do have some companion pieces that come along with the book.

[26:23] So if you ordered the book and you send me an email, there's a little link that says hey, I ordered the book. Then I, I have some free companion.

[26:30] I call them resources. One is a chapter,

[26:34] like a chapter by chapter journal that goes along with it asking questions.

[26:39] I also have the music, the Spotify downloads. There's a 30 day devotional of psalms of lamentation that is available which is really helpful. Just it takes a different psalm and it just ask different questions for you if you want to do that.

[26:55] And then I also have a handout for like a one pager. It's like how you can help and what can hurt. And it's like a mom can give it to somebody and say this is what I need.

[27:07] And so it just gives her that.

[27:09] And then I also have six.

[27:12] It's like they're pre filled out form. You fill them out but like surviving the first handout so like, if Christmas is coming and we dread those holidays, and this is just a little checklist of things you can do,

[27:26] like, or don't have to do. And it's just kind of nice, like, who are my safe people?

[27:30] Who can.

[27:31] You know, how can I plan? How do I want to spend this day?

[27:35] What can I do? Who are my support people?

[27:38] And,

[27:38] you know, and just. Just giving yourself some freedom to do the things you. You need to do to get through those days.

[27:45] Jan: Yeah.

[27:45] Jackie: Cause those are the hardest parts, I think, for mom is surviving those firsts. Oh, my. I dreaded their birthdays.

[27:52] Oh, yes. Birthday. I was even surprised. July 4th was hard. Cause I'm like, oh, I could get through July 4th. And I'm like, oh, my gosh. I couldn't, you know, without.

[28:02] You know, it was hard, too. It's like little Halloween. Who knew, right? But. But there's so many memories in that, depending on what your traditions are. And.

[28:11] But it. I. It's just a helpful guideline. I always say, you just need to make plans. Even though we don't want to,

[28:16] but somebody needs to make a plan to help you get through that. Otherwise, it's just,

[28:21] you know, it just makes it harder, I think.

[28:24] Jan: Yeah. Yeah.

[28:25] Jackie: And what I've discovered, too, is the anticipation of the day is actually more difficult than the day itself.

[28:32] It's like riding a roller coaster when you're waiting in line and you're anticipating,

[28:37] you know, and then you're like, the closer you get, the more anxious you get. And then when you get on the ride and you're like, oh, that wasn't so bad.

[28:44] You know, it kind of like a.

[28:47] You know,

[28:48] have you.

[28:49] Jan: Have you created, like, something special that you do every on the anniversary of his death?

[28:55] Jackie: We. We do. Yes. So I'm a planner,

[28:58] and what. I needed to do something on the anniversary. I couldn't be home.

[29:04] I had to be away from home. And so our first year, we went to Disneyland. We went to the happiest place on Earth.

[29:11] And then, yeah, we were fine until we saw the little Jedis in training, and we just burst out crying because my son was that loved the, you know, Star wars.

[29:20] And so. But, you know, we're in Disneyland, so we cried and we had.

[29:25] It was. It was. It was great.

[29:27] And so then every year after that, we planned. We've gone to New Zealand,

[29:31] we've gone to Glacier, we've gone to London.

[29:35] You know, we've gone to.

[29:37] This year, we're going to Tombstone, Arizona, to go. To. Go to a cowboy town. On the anniversary. So we now, it's become like a tradition. We just know in September we're going to go travel.

[29:49] And so what became dreadful has now become a lot of fun, you know,

[29:53] and then we just. And my daughter always. I always want to make sure that you want to be together.

[29:58] And we're always together on the anniversary. So wherever we are, whoever needs can't come, we go to them. So it works out really great. Yeah, I'm glad we can do that.

[30:08] Jan: Yeah. Yeah. Because I think that would be. I would think that's a, A way to preserve, you know.

[30:15] Jackie: Yes. That. And we talk and laugh and cry. You know,

[30:20] the stories are sweeter now.

[30:22] You know, I think the early days, it was hard to see past what,

[30:27] what Sebastian had done.

[30:29] And,

[30:30] and then now it's like, oh, we remember what, who he was,

[30:35] and it's just, it's more sweet.

[30:37] Yeah,

[30:38] yeah, yeah.

[30:39] Jan: So if someone found you on your substack, what, what do you have to share on your substack?

[30:45] Jackie: On my substack. Right now I'm, I'm writing about grief. A lot of the,

[30:50] the essays,

[30:51] parts of them are in the book as well, so if they want a preview.

[30:55] But mostly I, I, I write.

[30:57] Yeah. About grief and loss and identity.

[31:01] My most recent article was I just found out my father had died two years ago.

[31:06] So I was estranged from my father and, but what that grief was like, I'm just like,

[31:12] nobody told me. And so I wrote. It's called An Obituary for an Absent Father.

[31:17] So I write about different types of grief. And, you know, I just, they're just stories. Stories of. I, I love, I'm a storyteller. I love to tell stories and that people I think can resonate with.

[31:28] And, you know, I, I always say I write about hard things. I wish I could write about fun things, but I tend to write about.

[31:35] That's okay. I'm like, all right.

[31:36] But there's fun. There's funny things in those stories too, you know,

[31:40] so. Yeah, they're very real. They're very me.

[31:45] Jan: This has just been a blessing to spend time with you, Jackie. And I'll be happy to get all those links in the show notes for that and.

[31:53] Yeah. And I'll put the links to your other episodes in there.

[31:57] Jackie: Oh, yeah, please do find the rest of the stories.

[32:02] I know. I, I'm actually gonna, I'm getting ready to post a substack about the World cup and grief, you know, about missing my boy during the World cup and wishing I could talk to him about Germany being a bully and, you know, why,

[32:16] you know, or who is doing, you know, what, you know, so. But.

[32:20] Jan: But I'm like, yeah.

[32:21] Jackie: Even nine years later, it's like, okay, all right. Lord, you know, still writing about, you know, the grief story, but it's still. It's more. It's more precious and fun now, you know, if that makes sense.

[32:31] So, you know.

[32:33] Jan: Well, you can laugh now.

[32:35] Jackie: Oh, totally can laugh about it. Yeah.

[32:38] Whereas before, we couldn't laugh, and now it's like, okay, we can laugh. Other people won't get it. But that's okay, you know?

[32:44] Jan: That's okay. Oh, thank you so much.

[32:47] Jackie: Thank you. It's always a pleasure. Yeah.