"From Rebel to Redeemed: Faith, Creativity, and Hearing God's Voice"

Wendy and Derek's Website

Derek Hatdnger has lived a lot of life — and God has used all of it. 

From a difficult childhood marked by family upheaval and financial stress, to years of spiritual rebellion, to nursing a first wife through cancer and experiencing a life-altering encounter with God, Derek's testimony is raw, real, and full of grace. 

Now married to Wendy, a freelance illustrator who has her own story of God's faithful provision through the uncertainty of creative work, the Hadingers join Jan for a conversation that is at once deeply personal and universally relatable.

This episode explores what surrender really looks like — in careers, in creativity, and in everyday moments of trust. Whether you're an artist wrestling with your calling, someone who has run from God and wonders if you can come back, or simply someone who needs a reminder that He has always taken care of you — this episode will meet you where you are.

Welcome to Just Talkin' About Jesus.

I'm Jan Johnson, a seasoned believer who loves relationships and, you know, just talkin' about Jesus.

Here you will find testimonies of those who God has changed through his grace.

Stories of feeling unworthy because of being sex trafficked, or of radical redemption of a woman who grew up with abuse, neglect, abandonment and drugs. A story of an abortion survivor. This and more. Lean in now.

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Transcript

Jan: Welcome everyone. My guests today are Derek and Wendy Hattinger.

So glad to have you people here today to join us and share your story and what you're doing in life.

Derek: It's an honor to be with you and to share the gift of the word of the Lord.

Jan: I want to start with the creativity.

That's what kind of drew me to you to begin with. Because I grew up with parents that were artists and so all of their friends were artists. And everything about my life has been that whole creative aspect.

And now pass it down to my kids as well and in different areas too. So that's like, oh, my heart.

Tell me about what you do, what your medium is, what, what drew you to be an artist and pun intended.

Wendy: Okay. I've basically been involved with art my whole life. Art and writing,

they pretty much grew at the same time and developed at the same time. The passion grew and developed at the same time for me ever since I learned how to hold a pencil,

you know, write with,

write a words. Even before I knew how to write or, or even read, I was interested in books and things. So but anyway, I write. What I do now is I'm a freelance illustrator.

I work from home and I illustrate books. But I also have a main client that keeps me busy all year long, which is a blessing. I've been working for that one client for like 10 years now.

Just had my 10 year anniversary.

Yeah, it's pretty, a pretty wonderful thing to have some, any kind of consistent freelance job.

That's a rarity.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's, that's my thing. Illustration is my big thing is that.

Jan: That you're mainly children's books.

Wendy: Well, it's kind of half and half. Now it's children's books. I do caricatures for parties and things like that. And I also do illustration for the company that. My, that job that I was telling you about.

The client keeps me busy doing illustration for products like. Like you go to a souvenir shop and you see a shopping bag or a pouch or a scarf,

anything like that that has pictures on it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Merch. Merch, yeah.

So it's really fun.

So it's for souvenir shops.

So every time I go on a trip and I've been to a location where I know I've done a bag,

I kind of do the scavenger hunt where I'm like, okay,

is this where they're selling my bag?

Is this where like. And it is so fun when I actually go to a store and, and I see my. My bag there, and I have to have a selfie with my.

Holding my bag up.

Jan: Of course you do.

Wendy: Yeah. So. Yeah.

Jan: Yeah. And Derek, you write with her too.

Derek: She's the one that got me writing.

Wendy: I feel. Sometimes I feel like you're more of a pure artist than I am, actually.

My. My kind of spiritual experience with creativity,

I feel, was more connected with my writing.

Ironically, even though art is what I make my living with,

writing I feel like has always been my inmost passion and where God speaks to me the most,

which is probably why I didn't choose it as my profession.

I actually remember I made a conscious decision because I thought, well, I'd love to be a professional writer,

but I thought, well, you know,

I was thinking that the practical way of doing it maybe would be to, you know, use my writing to start off as a journalist or something like that, to once again just in a practical way, try to make money from it and start off that way.

And then I just realized very, very quickly that my writing was just too precious to me and much of a pure thing to.

To use in that way. And I. I wanted to keep it sacred, I think, for myself.

Derek: And then the. The way I do my art and my approach to things is in a way, a complete opposite, but also a compliment to her. And it just expands, it dovetails, and it doesn't collide and all that stuff just as beautiful experience.

And to collaborate. It's a whole different world with husband and wife. But you're also an artist, and there's no fighting about it. It just makes it fun.

Wendy: Yeah.

Derek: Two kids.

Jan: I. I just see. I just see the joy of the Lord, you know? I mean, and when God, the ultimate creator.

Derek: Amen.

Jan: This is what I think about. Okay, you got it.

Derek: That's why I laughed with him. Now you said it. That was now. You just triggered the memory. God's like, I created you and now you're creating with me. And I heard him.

I was like, laughing with the Holy Spirit.

Jan: Joined. You were.

And I just, wow. I just picture God, the Holy Spirit, Jesus up there creating things and going,

oh, wow, look at this bird that I made. And then go, oh, you think that's good?

Wendy: Wait, wait.

Jan: Just wait. Let's just find that a little bit. Wait till you see what I just made, you know, I mean, just like, wow.

Derek: I think about that a lot, and it brings me just as much joy. I mean, you know, you read in Romans, you read, know there's. There's no excuse for people.

Does God exist? Look at this.

Jan: Beautiful.

Derek: All these patterns that cross.

Like, you know, my Venus system and how it expands and then splits off and pressures are relative throughout my system. And it happens in birds and worms and, you know, there's all of these things in a pattern, and it has to be designed mathematically.

It's impossible for it to have. We know it. I mean, it explains it clearly. But God confirms himself everywhere,

over and over, infinitely. And it's amazing how people just. Oh, I don't know. I can't really believe it.

Like a kid. It's easy. Yeah.

Jan: Like, I'm sorry. I. I'm sorry you're missing out. I'm just sorry, because you just don't understand. I mean, you don't understand. They don't, you know, whatever. But. But I think it's just artists have a different way of looking at things, you know, I mean, that's like.

I. My memories of my mom was like, we'd take a walk on the beach. Oh, look at that texture in the sand.

Derek: Yeah.

Jan: Oh, pick up this.

Talking about, anyways,

the way that sparkles. The way the light sparkles on the water or what. Whatever it was that she'd stop and look at the texture of the bark on a tree, you know, but she taught me to do that just by what she did, you know,

Wendy: that's great.

Jan: And it's just. But that's what artists do. It's amazing. And it brings such joy. Doesn't it just.

Derek: Yes, it does, you know?

Jan: Yeah.

Wendy: To you and to others, you know, to your. To the artist and to the people who enjoy the artist works. It's a wonderful thing. It's a blessing.

Jan: So everybody's got something that's creative in them, you know, And I think people.

More people need to just explore that and just open themselves up to. And ask God, hey, show me what you want me to do. Creative today. Today. What is that little thing?

You know, and it's a ministry.

You know, it's. It is a ministry,

all of it.

So life hasn't always been just peaches and cream and roses and whatever.

Derek, tell us a little bit about your story.

Life hasn't always been peaches and cream and roses.

So, Derek, tell us a little bit about your story.

Derek: All right.

Grew up,

strong family, faith. My dad, you know, went to a Baptist church.

You know, he would read the Bible to us every night and talk to us about the importance of faith. You know, we went to an Awana program, memorized a lot of scripture, which was crucial because then when all of this Stuff started happening.

My mom didn't understand a lot of things. He couldn't explain a lot of things to her.

Divorce ensued.

I went into public school from a Christian school because we're, you know, financial issues and all of that.

He was fighting all sorts of stuff. We could barely keep our house.

You got into heavy metal,

met some people in public school,

Just basically rebelled against God hard, you know, smoke pot for the first time.

Got drunk out in the woods with somebody. Somebody's like, hey, have you ever read the Satanic Bible? I bought a copy of that read. It was like, no, I'm giving this to someone else.

This is bad.

But really, through music and a lot of stuff,

Satan worked me very hard in this deep spiritual unrest within me created by all of these things and my interest in the spiritual realm. It's like I open these doors for these things.

And then throughout life,

you know, I. I got in a band and backed off of all the dark stuff. Oh, life's all good, but still not a close walk with Christ. And yet another way for Satan to trick me.

Ended up.

Got married to my best friend,

Had a daughter. From that, she got breast cancer.

She passed away. And through her process of cancer and taking care of her when I was nursing,

that's when the Lord grabbed me and separated me from everything.

I woke up one morning,

she was just talking all this what you call random stuff.

And I was going to give her a fluid bolus through this port. And she looked right past me and she's like, you're not coming to get me yet.

And this look in her face. I felt cold. Death was in my room as she was talking to death, like, I need a little time.

And then she looked at me, she said, oh, hey, sweetheart, there you are.

Came to it a month later,

woke up,

took her in the hospital, found out she had tumors everywhere. And I got home, I walked in my room and I said, God, what do you want from me? Because I felt his presence there.

All the stuff I had done, it meant nothing at that point.

Laid on my bed and I said, I'm done. Lord, take everything from me. I'm. I can't do anything without you. Why? All this stuff happened, you know,

I felt all of this stuff leave me.

Like I was baptized with the Holy Spirit that night. That's all I can say.

Once I was totally empty, the soft voice that resounded in my head, he's like, we're here to comfort you. Tonight.

Elizabeth will be in a month. She's going to be up in heaven. With us, you don't have to worry about anything.

We're here to comfort you. And I felt. I don't know if it's Lord. The angel just put his right hand on mine.

And I'm closing my eyes, and I see this little doorway come up to me.

And I'm in blackness. And this doorway opens up and I see the universe and all these galaxies. And I hear his beautiful voice and his infinite amount of tones.

And I walked halfway through, and he said, you are my witness. And the door shut. And I opened my eyes.

Scared me to death. And I went to sleep and I woke up. And ever since then, he's been.

I suffered through bad decision,

relationship decisions after that,

thinking that my feelings were okay. I think God's telling me this.

So he used a lot of suffering and a lot of situations to, like, clear out all the chaff.

And then just, you know, went through a horrible marriage,

married this woman at the hospital. I worked when Elizabeth had passed. It was a while later, my daughter and I, you know, we thought this lady was awesome. She was,

you know, devout Christian.

No red flags or anything. Couple years into the marriage,

my daughter started speaking out for herself. And we got yelled at every day, got really violent. There was bad spirit behind that whole thing. And one day I sat by the fire outside.

I had nothing else to do. And God's like, derek, what are you doing?

You're letting the oppressed be oppressed and you're supporting the oppressor. You're done with this. You need to leave.

Oh, okay, God.

So I got up and I left and I said, God, I'm done with everything. I'm done with everything. Just show me the way here. I tried to claim something for myself after the one experience I had, and he showed me how dangerous that was.

You don't do it. Derek got online,

met Wendy. I. He put my gut. I was like, I'm not getting online to meet somebody. But I had this strong feeling in my gut. So I did, like, totally anti.

What I would ever.

Call that night.

It was that night when I got that card and I get the Zeus account. And I'm sitting here playing my guitar. Like, what am I doing? I'm broken. I'm done.

And that's when Jesus, in the spirit, he comes. It's like he sat next to me on the porch, put me up on his lap, as I can imagine, and put his arms around me while I played.

And he said, derek, it's okay. Let these tears come out. I love you.

You are healed. You don't need to worry about a thing.

You just put me first. And it was like I was reborn again.

After I meet Wendy and we just start talking about all this stuff.

I'd proposed to her very shortly thereafter, knowing, hey, that. Guys, I got to your wife.

So I go home. I finished talking to her on the phone.

I had been working that day. I sat down,

I was like, man, I gotta go to bed. I'm feeling weird.

So I'd laid down, and all of a sudden this spirit came over. Like.

I felt like God was throwing me. I was like, God, are you sending me to hell tonight? Where am I at? I was.

I saw all of my life instantly.

I saw everything around me. I was in utter blackness. And I felt this spirit trying to crush me and hating me.

But this tiny little light above, it's like God's just looking down, keeping his mouth shut,

saying, I am above all of this. This is what I am perceiving.

But I thought of everything that I ever breathed and thought, every molecule and cell with him. He's like, this is sinful and wretched.

And everything I ever did to anybody, what happened,

it came all back on me as to what happened to them and what made them feel. And it was like instantly I perceived all of that. And he said,

are you mine?

I said, jesus, I was just screaming out in tears, I can't do anything without you. He says, you are all mine.

And he claimed me right then and there. And as I was going on, I felt the spirit, goodbye.

I'm tempting your daughter because you can't move.

And that was a demon that went in to tempt my daughter while I was experiencing this.

She wakes up the next morning.

Dad, I had this dream last night.

You're standing on the street corner right in front of her house,

and the moon was on fire. And it kept going around and around. It was like sunrise, sunset. Sunrise, sunset. And she's like,

that's crazy, Eric. Sure. She's like, dad, is. Is. Is Jesus coming back? And she said, you just kept looking up and then looked at me, said, I don't know.

And then you look back up. And she said, all of a sudden the clouds opened up and God grabbed this dragon and threw it and threw all of these evil spirits into all these cars that were on the street.

And the cars locked up, and they were locked in this. The way she described it was like Tartarus or the spiritual realm. Like they were chained. And she said when he had done all of that, the sun came up, he disappeared.

And we smiled, held hands, walked back in the house. She was dreaming that while I was having that experience.

But when Wendy and I got married,

oh, I mean, all of that was gone. But I was like. I was doing laundry two days later, and I'm in my basement and the floor is all mucky and concrete.

I was on my face, crying like mud in my face. I said,

jesus, I know what I need to do. I said, spirit of fear, in Christ's name, get out. Spirit of laziness. Every single thing that ever affected me,

I rebuked it right there. And I delivered myself through Jesus, the power of Jesus Christ. He delivered all these things out of me. And ever since then, I have never had one bad day, never argued with my wife,

never had one day of anxiousness, one desire to be angry at somebody.

It takes a lot of trial and error. And I'm a difficult middle child.

And I tried to rebel so hard. And he's like, oh, yeah, I'm using that in my nursing career.

How you're talking about that creative spark. Okay.

Jan: At any point, did you earlier on think that God would use those things in your life to be where you are now?

Derek: No.

I mean,

maybe I had some vain idea that, oh, you know, I could use my experiences to teach people. But no, I had no idea that the power of God.

Like, when I got into nursing,

I mean, I. That's when I realized how I'm being used.

Wendy: Yeah.

Derek: And my problems come from disobedience and not immediately responding to what God tells me. I woke up out of a dream. I was, like,

smiling. My face was hurting. I had goosebumps. His light was coming, and I heard Derek, and I went to grab the guy.

No one in here. Wow.

Oh, seven days. God's number,

week to the day.

I woke up and my face was hurting. I was smiling. Sun's pouring on me.

Nursing.

Okay. God. So I got on the phone, brewed some coffee, called the college. I was going for education.

Yeah, I'm switching my career path. I need to sign up for nursing classes. God told me to do this,

went on this journey. He provided through all sorts of hardships and stuff like that.

You know, when I got into my nursing career, when you were talking about the creative spark,

you know, I go into a patient's room, and here's this homeless guy. Oh, he would. You know, I'm just a dope. Smoke and this and that. And I'm like, well, yeah, when I was growing up, I did this, and I was hanging out with someone.

Tell you about first Time got drunk, puking on this nasty beer. Someone else, hey, drop this acid. It's going to be great. And like, you know, well, that ruined me for a couple years trying to come back from that,

you know, just all of these experiences were like, the harder I tried to get away from God,

he used that resistance.

God opposes the proud, but restores the humble. And I did not forget how much opposition I gave him.

So when he restored me, I was like, oh my God, I owe you.

I can't even pay you back. He's like, I'm grace,

just accept me and go and all of these experiences. I can relate with all of my patients and, and give something authentic.

Like, oh, you're not one of these erudite medical people who using all, you know, just to use the big word, you know, I'm not use being a translator for them.

Doctors would come in and say this and that. Hold on, hold on.

You become their advocate.

And all of the. Every single moment that I rebelled against my mom and my dad,

against loving other people properly, which is ultimately against God,

he used all of these experiences in life where not only did I directly pay him back for all those things, many times I would do something, he's like, I would remember the moment where I did something to somebody.

I'm like, oh,

I guess I don't know if I pay off a debt or not, but thank you, Jesus, here I go.

And once I reached a point of like, job,

God took everything away from him but his life and job.

In the end,

I can't deny God. It's all God's are the ultimate power. He never gave him up through his struggles. And then God gave him back double. I'm living that life right now.

And it's you, you go through all of this stuff. And it's like I used to think, am I redeemable God? I ran from him on this and I did this.

And that's when he came to me on the porch and he hugged me and he said, derek,

I knew you before you were born. None of that matters.

What matters is that you love me and I am sufficient for you. And now I. I'm like, I'm like a baby in diapers. Jesus, I'm in my diapers today. Can you hold me and tell me what to do?

Because if the second you let me go, I'm gonna burn my hand on a stove.

And I'm very thankful now to my wife, help inspire me to write.

I can use all of these what I would have thought horrible experiences and All. You know, God uses all things work together to the good,

to those who love God and who are the called according to his purpose as Roman state says,

amen to that. He just resoundingly says, hey, I'm using you for this and that. So now when I get my gut feeling like the Zeus. Okay, God, I'm doing this.

Don't understand it. Derek, do this. Okay, God, I'm doing it. Derek, quit your job. Okay, I'm quitting my job.

The ultimate nursing job, the ultimate marriage.

Wendy: And I'm like, God, God, can you. Can you stop. Can you stop it for a minute?

Just don't. Just don't tell him to quit his job. Can you please not do that? Like. Well, whatever. Yeah,

God doesn't listen to me

Derek: in the end when I gave him my all and he said, you're my child. It's okay. There is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.

People who feel condemned, they feel unworthy or whatever, that's not Jesus.

That's the devil. And he's just saying, no, look at me.

Only fear me. All the rest of the stuff is fear for everything else. He's like, you fear me. I'll take care of everything else. I know everything there is to know.

And once I authentically believe that and was truly converted by the Holy Spirit, He.

He's conversing with us right now. You know, he whispers things all the time. It's like he truly is there.

And I have truly experienced supernatural things by completely giving it all to him and totally believing that's the only way we can have redemption.

Wendy: Well, I've definitely learned a lot by Derek's experiences. You know, I was joking about it just now, but. But it is true that it's like through his.

Through his experiences of actually,

you know,

taking God's nudge and going with it on it in a very serious way,

you know?

Derek: Yeah, hardcore.

Wendy: It's hardcore. Yeah,

it's taught me. I mean, I've learned a lot of lessons about faith through my own professional experiences. Being a freelance illustrator, just being a freelancer,

that's not the route that I wanted to take in life. I wanted to have a nice, cushy job with benefits that's nice and safe and.

And predictable.

No. Well, I had that for ten and a half years, and then God booted me out in 2008. Those are before I met you.

So. Yeah, so. So I had my taste of that, you know, with the freelance life back in 2008, when I got laid off from that corporate job that Nice cushy situation.

For a couple of years, I was employed again at a. At a gaming company, which was fun,

a smaller company,

but once again I had benefits for a little while.

Luckily at my husband at the time, he had benefits with his job. So it didn't. It wasn't such a big deal for me not to have it, but.

But after that ended, I was on my own without benefits and realizing how expensive health insurance is when you're. When your company isn't paying for it, you know, So I,

I learned a lot just with,

you know, just with the freelance life alone, how, like just how God provides, you know, when just, just when I start to get a little nervous,

God picks it up.

I keep, I. I keep wishing that God wouldn't get it to a point where I would get nervous, but just

Jan: saying, wait, do you really trust me?

Derek: Because yeah, there you go.

Jan: I am Jehovah Jireh and I am provider of everything.

Derek: How much I like how you put that is.

Wendy: And that. That goes to like that's here. That brings me to the one thing when, you know, Derek tells his story of, of testimony and he hear. Talks about hearing God's voice and all that.

What makes me realize he's not insane is that I. Yeah, I know. Well, you know,

because some people might. Well, boy, this guy's off the, off his rocker. Yeah.

Derek: And that's the thing.

Wendy: But I. But I heard it. My. I have my own experience.

I had my own experience when I was laid off from my corporate job.

I was. I was in the process of writing a blog entry about the whole. How I was feeling at the time and about my fears and stuff. And all of a sudden this, like this.

It was like a voice was in.

Was injected in the back of my skull. It was weird. I could almost feel it like where it was coming from.

It wasn't coming from inside my head. It was not a thought in my own brain. And it was the voice basically that was kind of injected inside my brain that said, haven't I always taken care of you?

And I just started. I just lost it. I started crying and I was Amen. So that I will never forget that message. And even though I get nervous sometimes that memory of that message comes back to me.

It's like God is over and over and over has proved to me that he is always taking care of me. He is always going to take care of me and always has.

As much as I get scared sometimes when things. Finances get thin and I'm like, oh my gosh,

I Don't want. Oh, I don't want to have to worry about money and all this stuff. But it's like, well, God, in the end, He. He provides when God guides.

He provides. You know, I. I love that saying because it's true and interesting how.

Jan: How, you know, God came to you, Derek, with a hug.

Derek: Yes.

Jan: A hug that says, no,

our mine, and I love you and I care about you and. And your audible voice. And I've had the same thing happen, you know,

it just. There's nothing that brings it, like, oh,

yeah, no, you're real. You are real.

Derek: Yeah.

Jan: This isn't just like, I'm reading about and doing and, yeah, I'm trusting you. That's kind of out here. It's like, no, it's real. It is totally real.

Wendy: Yeah.

Derek: I'm gonna go to one of my favorite verses here.

He just reminded me of John.

Let's see up. Here we go. 14,

verse 21.

He that has my commandments and keeps them.

It's he that loves me,

and those that love me shall be loved of my father, and I will love them and manifest myself to them. It's a promise.

Jan: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know what? He's not done with you yet.

Derek: No.

Jan: There is more to come.

Derek: Yeah.

Wendy: Oh, my gosh.

Derek: Yeah. This nursing job. I have this lady, I talked to her. She's a devout believer. I met her and her husband and this interview, you know, Wendy sat in on it, and I was just talking about the power of prayer and how God nudges me.

And I was like, oh, I got to take a little break for family before I come back. You know, you're used to the punitive overlords of corporate whatever. And she sent me this most gracious email.

I about broke down and cried and showed Wendy. I'm like,

when God's like,

you know, and when we verbalize things, when we pray,

what we is unleashed on earth is unleashed in heaven. What we say we're accountable for.

And I realized that when I said, God, the job that I want. I want the nursing job you want for me.

Put me where you want to do your things. I don't want anything. I just want what you want. Otherwise, I don't want a nursing job. And you let me know.

Amen. Thank you. Done.

That's exactly what I got.

Jan: Yeah. Now make your request known to God. It's like asking Amen. That's what he's talking about when he says, ask what you will,

because it's not just like, ask anything. It's like ask what you want.

Derek: Exactly.

Jan: And that's what I'm going to give you.

Derek: And by. Yeah, and by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving,

you know. And he then supplies the peace of God which passes all understanding supplied by Christ Jesus. Like,

wow.

Jan: And what gives you a greater joy than being. Doing what you know God wants you to do and say and be nothing.

Wendy: Yeah, exactly.

Jan: Start with you, Derek. What, what do you want to leave our listeners with?

Derek: Pure love casts out fear.

You don't avoid fear, you don't escape it. Pure love casts out fear.

God is love.

You put him first in all things and truly believe that he is who he says he is. That Jesus Christ came to earth from a pure virgin birth,

lived this perfect life,

gave his life for us, kept his mouth shut, bearing the weight of the world, and he rose again.

If you believe that he is God and he is authentically who he is in your heart, and proclaim that with your mouth, you are saved,

done.

Please believe today because I've almost died a few times over,

spiritually, physically, from, you know, just all these things are going on. And when I put Christ first, he lifted me out. And not only did he do that,

he said, let your light shine before men.

Now I have a light to shine. So put the Lord first in all things. He will completely change your life and make you a light for everyone else in the process.

Yeah, that's my advice right there,

Wendy.

Wendy: Thanks. Yeah, yeah. I,

my,

my offering for everyone listening is I'm going to go back to my whole creative way thing. It's like as far as going back to creativity, if you have a creative dream that you have that God has placed in your heart,

please move,

please make one little step towards it and pray to God while you do it and ask God,

what,

what can I do? Like, you've put this in my heart, Lord, you've put this desire in my heart.

What do I need to do to.

To make the first step forward and, and how can. And just pray through it and just, just give God the wheel. Give God the hold, you know, tell him, hold my hand as I write this book, as I paint this picture.

Whatever it is that you want to do,

ask God to be a part of it and he'll help you through it.

He'll help,

he'll make it a reality for you. But you have to work with him.

Derek: That's right. As you said, the co author. I love how you put that. You know, that's.

It's a relationship.

And when we get a relationship with the Lord. He teaches us how to have proper relationships with everyone else.

And we can have these beautiful creative discussions and all these.

Wendy: He is the ultimate creator after all, so why not include him?

Derek: Don't be afraid to do art also.

What people might make fun of me. Rock it out. The first person in the Bible is blessed with the Holy Spirit was an artist who helped building the temple. That's the first person mentioned being filled with the Holy Spirit.

Go work. Go work.

Jan: Exactly.

Wendy: Exactly.

Jan: I love that. I love that. Thank you so much for.

Derek: Absolutely.

Jan: Thank you in your life and being so vulnerable with us because it's just. That's what it is. That's what it is.

Derek: Well, the Lord led the way, so thank you for allowing something to come out. I had no idea what.

Wendy: Thanks for making space for that.