The Last Supper Isn't Over: Jesus, Passover and the Final Cup

www.ourfatherabraham.com   

 Lon and Ryan Wiksell, who are a father and son team,
both ordained Christian ministers, but in very different faith traditions. Lon has a Master's of Divinity from Oral Roberts University and a Doctorate of Ministry in Messianic Judaism from the King's University.
He continues to serve as an elder in his Messianic Gentile congregation near Kansas City. And though not Jewish, Ryan was raised by his parents in a Messianic Jewish community and went on to become an Episcopal priest, also in the Kansas City area.
Dr. Lon Wiksell founded our father Abraham in 2060 with his son Ryan Wiksell to promote awareness of the Jewishness of Jesus and Christianity as well as to educate churchgoers about Jewish festivals like Passover.

In this powerful episode, we dive deep into the rich spiritual and historical meaning behind Passover and how it connects to Jesus, the Last Supper, and the promise of the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. Lon shares insights into the significance of the four cups of the Seder meal, the symbolism of the unleavened bread, and the Psalms Jesus likely sang with His disciples. This episode will open your eyes to the beauty of communion, deepen your appreciation for the Eucharist, and show how the Last Supper is still ongoing—awaiting its glorious conclusion in the Kingdom of Heaven.

From the day we’re born, we begin a journey. It will be molded by our families, our environments, our beliefs, and motivations. 

God, as the alpha and omega is with us each step of the way, whether we follow him or not. 

Just as we have our own personal journeys, each character in the Bible has theirs. Each have had their own lessons to learn. 

And higher than that, God has used each one in his ultimate plan. 

Discovering your Journey– finding God i

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Transcript

Jan: I have some fascinating guests here today.

Got Lon and Ryan Wiksell, who are a father and son team,

both ordained Christian ministers, but in very different faith traditions. Lon has a Master's of Divinity from Oral Roberts University and a Doctorate of Ministry in Messianic Judaism from the King's University.

He continues to serve as an elder in his Messianic Gentile congregation near Kansas City. And though not Jewish, Ryan was raised by his parents in a Messianic Jewish community and went on to become an Episcopal priest, also in the Kansas City area.

Dr. Lon Wiksell founded our father Abraham in 2060 with his son Ryan Wiksell to promote awareness of the Jewishness of Jesus and Christianity as well as to educate churchgoers about Jewish festivals like Passover.

Jan: So I think this is a timely interview considering we just had Passover and headed to Easter there. So start out just a little bit. Just even reading this, I'm thinking, okay, how did that work out?

You were raised with your dad in one thing.

What led you to your faith difference to where you are now?

Ryan: Well, I think each of us is going to have a. Both of us have been on interesting paths where we didn't necessarily end up where we started. 

Lon: Okay.

Well, where I am, and essentially you are, is starting an interest in the historical context of Jesus.

And that started way back in my first Bible class, a New Testament survey class. And I became fascinated with the historical background of the first century Second Temple Judaism. And I realized, wow, there's more to the New Testament than just what's written there.

What. What is Jesus, the disciples and this temple and Sadducees and Pharisees and all that. And so I just always kind of continued that study.

I'm an IT professional by trade,

and the Lord led me to seminary, and it was there where I got more of an interest in the historical background of the New Testament. And it was after I graduated from seminary that we.

We came to Kansas City, and we got involved in the Messianic Jewish movement. And at that point, it all kind of came together,

helping the Jews who believe in Jesus and their faith and also in my studying the background to the New Testament.

Jan: Yeah, yeah.

Ryan: And you mentioned in our introduction how dad went to Oral Roberts university. I was 10, 11, 12 years old, so very much in the Pentecostal charismatic tradition there, but going from there into the Messianic Jewish movement.

So I, those were my high school years and some lead over into college years for me. So that was very formative for me and I kind of went forward into adulthood with this, this blend of charismatic Christianity and Messianic Judaism.

But I'm just a very exploratory person and I'd say both of my parents encouraged that in me to own my beliefs, own my faith. And my wife and I went on to plant an independent church in downtown Springfield, Missouri, which was just totally unaffiliated with anything and very pan denominational.

But that ended in 2012, at the very end of 2011, and we were sort of set adrift and it was the Episcopal Church that was sort of our, our way back in to church community, into Christianity.

And it was there that I really found,

I think I found a wide berth to be able to explore even, even while staying in Episcopalian, I could change my mind on things several times and, and not feel like I was.

Like somebody was breathing down my throat, breathing down my neck. And. But they encouraged me in my leadership work and in my ministry. And so I went to, to Seminary in 2018 to an Episcopal seminary and was ordained in 2021.

And.

Jan: Maintaining your charismatic experiences.

Ryan: And it's, you know, there's, I'll have to say there's a lot that I miss about it. It's not always easy to, to have your cake and eat it too.

Jan: That's a different setting, you know, right.

Ryan: To be every kind of Christian at once. So I, I do try to take opportunities, though, to reconnect with that, that aspect of my upbringing and part of what made me who I am.

And, and there's not a whole lot about that that I've intentionally left behind. I, I really do try to, to bring it with me as much as I can.

Lon: Well, there's a lot of similarities really between Messianic Judaism and the, what Ryan does in the Episcopal Church because, I mean, I love liturgy. I love. And in the Messianic Jewish services, we have the crafted prayers, the liturgy, and it's the same in the Episcopal Church.

So I feel very comfortable in attending Episcopal services. And I guess the liturgy, the liturgical type seems to fit me too, because it connects me into the historical roots of Christianity.

So in some sense, the charismatic Pentecostal movement may be a little bit too free form at times, you know, and so I do enjoy,

I, like Ryan said, I enjoy both and Again,

enjoy the historical aspects of both, you know, liturgical approach as well as a charismatic approach.

Jan: Yeah, my husband is Catholic, and So all our 35 years of married life, I've gone to Mass with him, but then  I go to his Mass, and then afterwards I go to a open Baptist church, you know, with all worship a little more lively.

Ryan: I wish every Christian could spend time in both. Yeah.

Jan: And I really appreciate the Catholic mass because I mean, as far as there is a lot of Old Testament stuff in there, you know, and you just see a lot of that, you know, the ritual, the lights, the.

The candles, the way they do communion, a lot of that stuff. So I appreciate all of that too. You know, it brings a different richness to it.

Ryan: And a lot of what you're referring to with Catholic churches is. Are things that you find in the Episcopal Church as well.

Lon: Not.

Ryan: Not the same in every. Every parish. But, yeah, there's a lot of similarities there too.

Jan: Yeah. And interestingly enough, I grew up in a Lutheran church, but. But the place where I feel like I got saved was at a Catholic Charismatic prayer meeting.

That was the first time I really heard the Gospel. And my, like, I had a responsibility to do something about that. So it's all. It's all there, you know, and there's something for everybody, and it's.

It's all good, I think, you know.

Ryan: Well, and if you like liturgy and you like the gifts of the spirit, there's nothing better than a Catholic Charismatic meeting, is there? Into one pot.

Jan: So I want to just ask you, I want to get into things about Passover, but first of all, Lon, I want to ask you about Jews that are becoming Christian.

What makes them make that jump?

Lon: Well, I mean, a lot of them come to faith because they're seeking something more.

And if you haven't really met Jesus and you just attend service, whether it's Catholic or Protestant or in a synagogue, sometimes the liturgy can seem kind of dry and just a form.

And so a lot of these Jews grew up in the synagogue and had their bar and. But misfit in the synagogue, but they didn't find the yearning in their soul.

And so a lot of the leaders I know became believers during the Jesus people movement and the hippie movement back in the late 60s. And they were seeking, and it was just an encounter with another Jewish believer or a Christian and is like a veil had been removed from their eyes and they saw Jesus and they go,

oh, yeah, wow. And then they could see Jesus as a fulfillment of The Old Testament, that Jesus was Jewish. And that kind of sealed it that Jesus was not a gentile or some foreign God, that he was actually Jews, Jewish and the disciples were Jewish and the first messianic communities were Jewish.

And that kind of when they became believers, then kind of sealed their identity of wanting to maintain their Jewish identity rather than assimilating into Christianity.

So yeah, they came to faith when they saw Jesus.

Ryan: If I could add something to that,

there will always be people who embrace Jesus and there will always be people who don't. But I hope that the decision that people make about Jesus is based on who Jesus really is and not on some sort of picture that we paint for our own agenda, our own purposes.

And so Jesus has been painted a lot of different ways throughout the centuries. And one of those ways is that he's blonde haired, blue eyed, Swedish, or you know.

Jan: Probably not, I want to.

Ryan: Be married to the Swedes. But when we have painted him like ourselves and that Jesus likes the people we like and maybe even hates the people that we hate, right, we are not giving people a fair shot at deciding whether they really want to follow Jesus or not.

So. And that's really true across the board. But to, to your question and to dad's answer here,

Jewish people deserve the right to, to choose to follow Jesus or not based on who he really is and who he really is as Jewish. And they also deserve to be able to make that decision knowing that they can maintain their Jewish identity and worship a Jewish Messiah, follow a Jewish Messiah as Jewish people without having to relinquish that identity.

And again, many people won't make that choice, but those who want to should feel like they can. That's, I think that's been an important aspect of the Messianic movement.

Jan: Interesting. I think the bottom line is everybody that accepts Jesus at one point has either a visitation of sorts that God, you know, bops with, or they get to really know who he really is.

You know, to going, and at some point you are leaving behind whatever your background is, you're leaving behind something or a lack of understanding that you had until you figure out, oh yeah, that's the guy I really want to know.

He's really my father, my son, my friend, my, you know, brother.

Ryan: You make a good point. It's, I mean, he says, pick up your cross and follow me. He's not saying you can keep everything about your life exactly the way you want it.

There is sacrifice and there is relinquishment. So.

But you know, in our experience and our Observation. Jewish identity is not one of those things that people are asked to relinquish in order to follow Jesus. And that's especially true once you learn how important his Jewishness was to him.

Jan: Yeah.

Ryan: And to all of his earliest followers.

Jan: Yeah, I mean, basically they're relinquishing that they are, you know, that Jesus is the Messiah. You know, I mean, their past thoughts of that couldn't be or, you know, whatever.

Ryan: That nothing good comes from Nazareth.

Jan: Exactly. So we've got Easter coming up. We have some Passover. Talk about Passover. What you guys have, say that in depth.

Ryan: That's not over though, is it? It just started.

Lon: Well, Passover started a few days ago.

And so we have many friends that have. That celebrate with a Passover meal or a Passover Seder, as they call it.

We've got ours coming up in a few days.

So the Jews who, who have grown up celebrating Passover,

and that's one of the things when they became believers, that they didn't want to give up because they saw. They saw Jesus so much in Passover.

And as we understand it,

Luke 22 gives us the Passover story, but it is rooted in Exodus 12, the Passover lamb.

And that is foundational, I think, really for understanding only Passover, but our theology, because it's there when God gives the first command of the Jewish people as a whole to do this, to celebrate this.

So Passover kind of kicks off, not only the festival year, but it kicks off everything as far as our theology, because look at the. The basis of the episcopal service and the Catholic service is a Eucharist.

That's what it leads up to. The liturgy leads up to. Well, the Eucharist is Passover. And that's what. Because it came out of the command of Jesus to do this in remembrance of me.

And so when we start to understand more, what does Jesus mean when he says do this and the historical significance.

One little, little. There's so much I could say about Pasim, but I'll show you one thing. In Matthew, it says after the meal they sang a hymn and went out to the Mount of Olives.

What did they sing?

Well, Jewish tradition has it that they sang the Psalms 113 to 118. And that was sung in the temple. During the sacrifices. The priests would, Levitical priests would walk up and down the stairs to the temple.

They would be singing this song. And that was traditionally sung during the Passover meal. So what does it mean that Jesus and the disciples were singing Psalms 113 to 118 throughout the meal.

And what does Psalms 1:18 say when it says about the cornerstone and all the significance of Psalm 118 that they had just finished and then they go out to the Mount of Olives.

Ryan: So wait, what does Psalm 118 say? Is it the stone the builders rejected? It's become corners? The stone the builder rejected has become the corners.

Lon: That's one of them. And then you consider, you know, his love endures forever. There is so much depth, just even in Psalms 118,

that if Christians understood that more as far as the Eucharist, Communion, the table of the Lord, I think it would enrich their understanding of community and the command that the Lord gave and the significance and meaning of all of that.

So I think that's one of my purposes, is to help Christians understand Passover,

the historical context and really understand what was happening when God gave that command to Israelites to. To take the. Take the lamb.

And we. We see just the joy of. When we think of they killed the lamb and the blood would. Would go. Would be at the basin, and they'd put it out around the doorpost of the house.

You would go through that door. The father, after he killed that lamb, would go through that door. We get a beautiful picture of the blood. And even, like Jesus said, the blood of his blood, that as you go through that, you pass through this blood covenant that God has created,

it just. There's just so much there that I'd really like Christians to understand.

Jan: Could you describe a seder meal? Not everybody knows what that's like.

Ryan: Yeah, I think he could.

Lon: Yes. Basically, there's 15 steps, but we won't go for all those 15 steps. But we can talk about the four cups.

The meal is defined by Exodus chapter 6, where there's four I wills that God gives the Israelites, and he says, I will take you and I will redeem you. And so the seder meal starts with usually a cup of blessing.

And that's the first cup. And you say a blessing,

and then. Then you have some. Some liturgy. You go through the storytelling of the. Of Exodus, and then you come to the second cup, which is the cup of judgment.

Now, during this meal, you. You take some, some matzah and some maru or some horseradish and stuff. So. And then you get a nibble on that so you can eat your way through Passover until you get to the meal.

And that's one of the fun things.

Jan: About it is the appetizer, the most.

Ryan: Meaningful appetizers you will ever eat.

Lon: Yeah,

so it's a wonderful experience because it's a worship meal. And we usually don't celebrate worship meals in Christianity. We usually worship and then eat. Here we have a worship meal.

And so then after.

After 30 minutes or so, we come to the second cup, which is called the cup of Judgment, and we recognize God's judging the false gods on Egypt. Then we have some more liturgy, and then we come to the meal.

So the first part takes about an hour, and then we'll break and we'll have a meal. We'll take about an hour for the meal, and then the second part will be about 30 minutes.

So right after the meal, we take the third cup. And that's the same cup that Jesus said after the meal he took the cup. So at this point, that after the meal becomes his third cup, the cup of redemption and the matzo, we break the matzah.

And so we're taking communion at that point, right after the meal.

Ryan: For those who may not know, the matzah being the unleavened bread.

Lon: Yeah, cracker.

Ryan: And it looks like an enormous saltine cracker for people who may not have seen it before, but yeah, it's a hard, flat, square shaped piece of bread.

Lon: So then usually after you take that third cup, then you might sing a couple songs, have a little bit more liturgy. The final one will be the fourth cup, which is the cup of joy.

And that's when you know joy in looking at what God has done and being thankful and all that. And it's the significant part of that is after he took the third cup, Jesus said, I will not drink again or eat of this again until the kingdom of heaven.

Tart. And so I always like to thank and enjoy.

Ryan: Hey.

Lon: He has not partaken of the Passover meal, and he waits for us, for his chosen when we all get together. And he'll. He'll take that cup. I just get thrilled. And I want to hear him say the blessing, the bracha, and say that blessing with all of his children together as he lifts his cup,

and then we all drink it together. And that's portrayed in Revelation in the marriage supper of the Lamb. So the marriage supper of the Lamb is the conclusion of the Passover meal that he started with his disciples.

And so he will conclude that with all of us as he takes that last cup. That's just a brief of the four.

Jan: It says something to me, you know, just having that whole. That whole picture. Wow.

Lon: Well, there is so much of the.

Ryan: Last Supper has never ended.

Lon: It's never Ending, it's still going on.

We are part of that meal. We're part of this covenant, because this new covenant, it'll also be consummated at that meal because that's the marriage supper of the lamb. So everything awaits this future meal that we take together.

Why try to teach the church and explain a lot of those things? Because even the redemption, the kinsman redeemer idea that the same word used in Exodus 6 is the same word used in the Book of Ruth, kinsman redeemer.

And God says, I am your kinsman Redeemer, I am your Boaz. So we get these beautiful pictures, these great pictures that for the most part, unless we don't understand in modern 20th century Western Christianity.

Jan: Yeah. So when Jews, not Messianic Jews, do Passover, do they cut it short?

Lon: No,

they don't go through all the cups. They interpret them differently than Jewish believers do. But pretty much these four cups and the 15 steps are pretty much the same that all Jews will celebrate.

Jan: And how did they, how did they interpret that? That's probably a long, long discussion too.

Ryan: Genesis effect of it, though, is the.

Lon: Question, like, what you mean the cup of redemption, the third cup?

Jan: Yeah.

Lon: Well, they interpret that because they were redeemed from Egypt.

Jan: So they're just looking at it historically.

Ryan: Yeah, it's almost like mapping out like the meaning that Jesus poured into the, the, the four cups into the matzah at the Last Supper are. Is sort of an overlay in a way.

It's not introducing new elements or whole new themes. It's saying, here's what you've recognized your entire life. Ever since you were little, you've been part of this recounting of and remembering of that being set free from Egypt.

And here's all of the little themes that go into that big theme. And Jesus just took each one and said, now I want to add a new layer to this.

I want to shed a new light on this, which is actually what Jesus did basically for his entire ministry in all of his.

Jan: I'm not doing away with the law. I'm bringing something new.

Ryan: I'm here to fulfill the law. And even in his greatest commandment and second greatest commandment, love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength. Love your neighbors, yourself.

He's quoting the Torah, Leviticus, and he's quoting numbers or Deuteronomy, Leviticus. I think I was right the first time. And this is part of what I said earlier on, that when we try to paint Jesus as the blonde hair, blue Eye.

You know, this gentile who comes along and just pulls all of these brand new teachings out of the air, and we're like, whoa, this guy's a genius. Well, I think he was, but he is.

He's mapping those teachings onto what people already knew, which is what every ingenious teacher does, in my opinion.

Jan: Yeah.

Ryan: Is they. They know their audience, they know their experiences, they know their symbols, they know their stories. And they say, and now I'm gonna. I'm gonna turn that gem for you a little more.

I'm gonna show you another layer that maybe you hadn't realized before. That's the entire Last Supper experience, in my opinion. And in the Episcopal Church, we say most of the time, and maybe you've heard this in the Catholic Church as well, we say, christ, our Passover, is sacrificed for us.

And everyone responds, therefore, let us keep the feast. Hallelujah.

We're calling it out. We're saying, Christ is our Passover. Our Passover. And which I think is shorthand for saying our passover lamb.

A lamb, the pure and spotless lamb who was chosen out of the flock to be sacrificed for us, and that the blood is spread over the doorposts of our heart to rescue us from death.

Jan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, it hasn't been that many years ago that I finally figured out that the Old Testament is all leading up to the New Testament. It's one big picture.

It's not just a bunch of all these things and wars and love, whatever, you know. So this last time that I'm reading it through, I'm thinking, oh, okay, there's one of those things.

There's one of those.

Ryan: Yeah.

Jan: I mean, it just. You never stop learning.

Ryan: And all you have to see is how often the New Testament writers quote the Old Testament, quote the Hebrew scriptures. I mean, Matthew is huge. Hebrews is huge. And, you know, Paul never stops referring back to the Old Testament.

So it does flow. Sometimes it feels like they're two totally different books and one is mean and the other one is nice or whatever, but that's. That's such a reductionist way of thinking.

It's such an oversimplification. It really is one grand love letter. It takes many different twists and turns, but you're right, it flows beautifully when we have the eyes to see it.

Jan: Yeah. It's just another revelations of things. Yeah. So you guys like to make things look real. Some of the characters look real in the Old Testament. You've written a book. Tell us about your book.

Ryan: Yeah, well, our book is coming out as we speak here. And it's trilogy, actually. It's going to come out one book at a time. So book one, well, the trilogy is called the Passover Trilogy, and book one is called the Last Seder of James.

Each of these three books has two components. There's a fiction component in the beginning and a nonfiction at the end. So we can take turns on that because we've sort of had a division of labor there.

I'm a little bit more of the fiction guy.

And it was really an opportunity to look. The first book is specifically about Passover. It's. It's framed up by the feast of Passover.

And we wanted to see how we might be able to convey those themes to people in new ways, the ways that they could connect more deeply with it. And what's better than story?

Of course, we learn from Jesus himself and from all the Bible, that story is such a beautiful way to convey these themes in Jesus parable. So it's almost like we took a page from Jesus and wrote a parable.

But we used known characters, known quantities here, specifically James, the titular character and last satyr of James being the brother of Jesus.

And as we know, he didn't really follow Jesus during his earthly ministry, but then did become a follower after Jesus appeared to him post resurrection and not only became a follower, but became one of the main leaders.

He became the bishop of Jerusalem, leader of the Jerusalem Church, and even the main decider in. In Acts 15 at the council of Jerusalem.

So very prominent figure. History also tells us that he was martyred in the year AD 62 by being thrown off the top of the temple, the highest wall of the temple, and.

And then also stoned once he hit the ground.

Different records say different things. Some have assumed that it was both.

So we kind of keyed into that historical event and then imagine, well, what was that last night like before he was martyred? Because supposedly he was martyred at. At Passover.

So we imagine that John the Apostle, John. John the beloved, John the Evangelist, you know, would have visited James on that last night of his life, and that their relationship would be characterized by some distance.

Mainly because we see how Jesus entrusted the care of his mother not to his oldest brother, which would have been natural, but to his favorite disciple.

And how would that make a brother feel to see that his job was being given away to a guy who was probably 10 years younger than he was, at least.

And then John proceeds within a few years to move to Ephesus and to take her with him, which was A long way from Jerusalem.

So not only was there physical distance between James and John, but probably some, some bad blood even between them. So that's something that kind of fuels the story is they come back together on that last night of James life.

John brings a Passover Seder with him so that they can celebrate Passover, they can observe the Passover meal together and in so doing, hopefully find their way to reconciliation to be, to really being brothers in Christ and that.

So, so the idea, and I think what's worked out has been to guide the reader through those steps of the Passover Savior. But as sort of a fly on the wall, watching James and John recount their memories.

James sharing memories from childhood, Jesus childhood that John wouldn't have known about. John sharing memories from Jesus ministry that James wouldn't have experienced. And in this way kind of rounding out their picture of who Jesus really was and finding their way back into friendship with, with each other.

Lon: And we, we set this in the background like Ryan said. 62 AD and that period from 62 until the temple was destroyed in 70 was a very volatile time in, in Israel history.

We see Peter and, and Paul martyred in 64 to 66. Of course, we see the zealots in the beginning of the war, the war with Rome and how that eventually ended with the destruction of the temple.

And the, the believers at that time, they didn't know that Jesus wasn't going to come back in their lifetime. So they're, they're struggling with this challenge too of going, Jesus, where are you?

What's going on here? Why are all the disciples being martyred? And what, you know, where are you, where, when are you going to return?

So there's a bit of that dynamic going on with people wondering what, what is happening? You know, they asked Jesus in Acts, you know, are you going to restore the kingdom at this time?

And Jesus said, none of your business.

Jan: Trust me. He says, trust me, trust me.

Lon: The Father knows it's in time. So we see a lot of these background dynamics going on and even they might really wonder then when the temple was destroyed. So they, they were, those eight years were a really, really dynamic challenge.

And that's what we bring out then in the second and third book.

And the, and the second, the third book is with the destruction of the temple. So the three books cover that a total of that eight year period.

Ryan: Yeah. And I want to leave some room to talk about the nonfiction aspect, dad, if you want to, but that does kind of give the framework of the trilogy. Didn't Mention yet that of the seven festivals that were commanded by God in Leviticus to Israel, three of them had some expectation of pilgrimage attached to them.

So those who didn't live in Jerusalem would. Would travel to Jerusalem for them. And Passover being the most famous one and that we're aware of, that's even described really explicitly in the Gospels of Jesus family traveling to Jerusalem for Passover and Jesus himself as an adult.

But the second one is Shavuot to the feast of weeks 50 days after Easter, which maps onto Pentecost, what we're aware of as Pentecost 50 days after Easter. That'd be a whole other conversation, but we've borrowed that very heavily from the Jewish calendar.

And the third being then in the fall Sukkot or the Feast of Tabernacles. So if there's three pilgrimage festivals, we got three books to cover those. And each one,

the story aspect takes place during that particular festival in the year in which it's set. And then the, the second part of the book, the teaching portion, then expounds on the, the symbols and themes and all of the significance of that particular festival.

Jan: Yeah, yeah. So where can people find your book? It's not quite out yet, Ryan, but it's coming.

Ryan: It is out. It is out. As far as your listeners are concerned, it's out.

We're right on the cusp of it, but our website is ourfatherabraham.com ourfatherabraham.com and given just a few extra months, we expect to see the books on bookstore shelves wherever,

either online or brick and mortar stores, wherever you like to buy your books.

Jan: Excellent, Excellent. I'll put links in the show notes for that because I know people are going to want to find out about this.

I am already thinking of how those pages are turning. I'm an author, too, so, you know, I'm thinking through how to write this and what did you.

Lon: We're working with Morgan James and so we, I mean, James Publishers.

Yeah, I mean, we first printed the last eight or ten years ago, self published it. So. And we printed a number and gave the book away. And now that we, at this point, we're working with them on finalizing the COVID We got that done and they're.

They're formatting the interior and hopefully it'll be, it'll be all wrapped up and available very quickly.

Ryan: Yes, that's the hope. Absolutely.

Jan: Yeah. Very exciting. Yeah, yeah. Congratulations. Writing books is a lot of work.

Ryan: They say no one wants to write a book. Everyone wants to have written A book.

Jan: And no one wants to market it.

Ryan: Well, although this is a lot of fun right here, I'm having a good time.

Lon: Well, we did have a lot of fun writing it because in writing the novel, the fiction part, Ryan would write a chapter and we, my wife and I, review it and we'd discuss it.

We wanted to get the. The voice right and everything in there. And I don't know, in the end, I figured the last Seder, we went through about 33 drafts,

so we put a lot of talk and a lot of work into it, so. But it's been a lot of fun.

Jan: That's awesome. And I just. I just think it's precious that you're doing it together.

Yeah.

Some of my books I started as well. Anyway, I wrote a memoir first, and then I needed to do my first hunt. Had a brain tumor, and I needed to do something fun.

So my youngest daughter and I started writing some romances, faith based romances. And doing it together was just so much fun.

Lon: Oh, good.

Ryan: Some dads just take their sons fishing.

Jan: Yeah, right. I know. But others write together.

Ryan: It's not what we do, I guess.

Jan: Write and podcast together. So there you go.

Ryan: Hey, I'll take it.

Jan: Lovely.

Ryan: Hopefully people find our way. Website, good resources. And our website as well. You, our YouTube channel, whatnot. You know, we can send that your way.