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Angie Baker and Jackie Baker: Adoption: Real-Life Stories Navigating Love, Loss and Reunion

• Angie Clayton and Jackie Baker • Episode 26

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Peering into the Tunnel: An Outsider's Look into Grief   Angie's book
Angie's website
https://www.facebook.com/angieclayton.author

Angie@angieclayton.net


Angie Clayton is an author, speaker, blogger and editor who has a passion for connecting with the hurting.  She is a storyteller, and her writing is rich with diversity. On her blog, Framing the Days, Angie shares with you the joys and beauty of both the mountain tops and the valleys of her life and the lives of those around her. Her book, “Peering into the Tunnel: An Outsider’s Look into Grief,” is a collection of real stories, as well as helpful suggestions to best serve someone who is grieving. 

She is a long-time Bible teacher and mentor and spends much of her time with hurting women. Her speaking engagements include numerous in-person and podcast appearances on many topics, including grief, grandparenting, chronic illness, and life after retirement.


In this episode, Jackie Baker and Angie Clayton share their unique adoption experiences. 

Angie reflects on her closed adoption and the unexpected reunion with her biological mother, which held both excitement and challenges. 

Angie speaks candidly about the complex emotions of connecting with siblings and navigating the intricacies of her biological family's history. 

Meanwhile, Jackie offers insight from the perspective of a birth mother who has placed children for adoption. 

Their stories shed light on the varied experiences within adoption, emphasizing the themes of love, secrecy, acceptance, and the transformative power of reconnecting with one's roots.

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[00:02] Jan: Welcome to just talking about Jesus. I'm Jan Johnson, a seasoned believer who loves relationships and, you know, just talking about Jesus. Welcome, my friends, to episode 26. Today's guests are Jackie Baker and Angie Clayton, both with completely different adoption stories. But before we get into the episode, I want to put on my author hat and tell you I'm pretty excited. That book, three of my Mercy series, the way to my heart, is coming out soon. This series is based on four nurse friends who work at Mercy Hospital every day. Peter Gunderson is haunted by a choice he made when he left for nursing school. Now he's leaving his career and returning home to his family's farm home, where the girl next door still holds a place in his heart. Olivia Olsen doesn’t let a little thing like being born without a hand slow her down. She’s a strong, independent woman. Until she’s not. She can’t seem to get her life figured out. Nothing she chooses seems to be the right fit. When she and Peter join to search for her bio mom, she discovers both a joy too wonderful to express and a reality too difficult to grasp. As friendship blossoms into more they discover the hidden layers and depths of who they are together, Peter and Olivia navigate an adoption story in which the power of love and miracle of faith promise, hope and healing. You won't want to miss this book with a surprise ending. Links will be in the show notes and newsletter. Newsletter? You say I'm not on the list. How do I get on so I can find out more about each podcast and other tidbits? A link to sign up will be in the show notes, and if you've already subscribed, I thank you. Let me know your thoughts. Okay? Get ready for more of what God has done in lives through his transforming power.

[02:01] Jackie Baker: So I'm raised in a single home. I was first person in my family to graduate from high school, let alone go to college, let alone, you know, get out of the inner city of Buffalo, New York. Really poor family. And I always promised myself I would never be like my mom, you know? And then my mom died when I was 18. I had a massive stroke. She was 36. I was 18 and homeless and then found myself pregnant, you know, because I, you know, was reacting, you know, I was. I was a mess. I was a mess, you know?

[02:40] : Angie, you have an adoption story. You want to share that with us?

[02:46] Angie Clayton: We do. I was adopted when I was about three weeks old by my mom and dad. And then let me just start anything I say from here going forward. When I say my mom and dad I mean, my adoptive parents, five. So anyway, having said that, when I was about 25, I always kind of wondered. I never. My parents told me from the gate. I don't ever remember not knowing I was adopted. So there wasn't some, like, big talk or revelation or anything like that. Curiosity more than anything. It wasn't a need. I didn't, you know, I didn't need a mom. I didn't have something that I wanted to be filled. But I was so curious, and so I kind of played around the edges of it. I was adopted through an agency, and it was a closed adoption. And so I thought I'd just, like, poke at one piece at a time. And then it all just undid itself at once. Because I got to the adoption agency, I wrote a letter. She, my adopted, my bio mom had written a letter. Someone opened the file, found both of them in there, and contacted me and said, look what we found. Do you want. Do you want to know her? I. And I said, well, yeah, but you contact her. I'm scared. And so they did. And it was. Yeah, it was wild. It really was, because it happened so quickly. I was more in shock, I think, than anything at first, as far as how I felt. I was excited, I was anxious. I saw a lot of really. I probably sweated a lot because I had a lot of really intense emotions, is what I remember.

[04:25] : What did you expect it to be like?

[04:28] Angie Clayton: You know, that's kind of a hard question, because I didn't know what to expect. I had no idea what to expect. I mean, I didn't know if she would like me, hate me, look like me, you know, not wanting if I'd be a disappointment. You know, I didn't know. And so I didn't really have any expectations. I was just scared, honestly.

[04:51] : So what was that like?

[04:54] Angie Clayton: Well, when I met her, finally, we talked on the phone, we exchanged letters, talked to the phone, sent some pictures back and forth. This was a long time ago, so we didn't have any zoom or anything like that. And then she came to the city where I lived, and when I met her that first time, and, of course, we had some. A little bit of history now. Cause we've been talking. But when she stepped out of her vehicle and I saw her, it was like a moment that was unlike anything I've ever experienced, because I looked like her. I've never looked like anyone in my life, right? I don't look like parents. I don't look like my brothers. And we are carbon copies of each other, and it went beyond that to where we have, like, I don't know, traits. Like, we cross our legs the same way. And, I mean, just a lot of really weird things that shouldn't be possible when we. I didn't grow up once, and so, yeah, it was. I didn't know what to expect, and so I kind of just was taking it as it came. And it was a pretty. Honestly, it was a pretty insecure place that I was coming from at that time because, I mean, I'm the. Excuse my language, but bastard child. Right? Who wants anything to do with me.

[06:06] : Right, right. And you hate to. You do hate to think that, because then you're wondering, well, why did you. Did you find out why she chose adoption or.

[06:16] Angie Clayton: I did. And let me. Let me just say that I will be forever grateful to her that she gave me life. It was 64, but I still could have been an abortion easily. It would have been so much easier for her. And she chose not to do that. And because of that, I'm sitting here, so I'll be forever grateful for that. She's actually older than my adoptive mom, which is kind of unusual. She was in her twenties. Just an unexpected pregnancy and no marriage, you know, looking to. Looking forward to in the future again. 1964. Right. And you don't have. You're not an unmarried mother back then. And so she went to mother's home, had me, placed me for adoption.

[07:05] : Did your adoptive parents react to you deciding to try and find her?

[07:14] Angie Clayton: You know, I don't think I told them when I was looking. I think I told them after I had located her, because I didn't know. And honestly, that was a very insecure place, too. I don't know if that's the right word. It's really not. But anyway, I was fearful of hurting them. I hurt them by saying, I wanna go find this out, but please be secure that it doesn't have anything to do with you guys or who you were to me. You're my parents, all of that. And so it was hard to go have that conversation. But you know what? I did not get a bad reaction from them at all. There was no. Nothing bad. It was more of just, I guess it felt like acceptance at the time. And I asked my mom, actually, this week, what did you. How did you feel when I told you that I had found her? And she said, we were just happy that you connected. And so that was. That was really interesting. And then she told me this. She said, do you know that we were in the process of adopting you before you were conceived. And I think about that, but they put, you know, put in their paperwork to adopt the baby a year before I was born. So if you think about the way God works, right. But he had me planned for them before I was conceived, so pointed that out. That's pretty cool.

[08:36] : That is exceptional. Yeah.

[08:38] Jackie Baker: Yeah.

[08:39] : And then you have some siblings as well.

[08:42] Angie Clayton: I I do. I got at least four. I've got three more brothers. That's a lot of brothers, isn't it? And one sister. I'm in contact with two of the brothers. One of them actually just came to visit me a few weeks ago.

[08:54] Jackie Baker: Oh, very cool.

[08:55] Angie Clayton: Kind of unexpected, but it was very cool. We had a great time. And so I asked him, what was your reaction to me? I don't know. I mean, because. Yeah. And so he said, well, I was very angry at first, and I was like, well, this is news to me. Why? Well, it turns out he had not found out directly from Bio mom. She told someone else who told him, and that was, that was really upsetting. And I totally get that. I'm like, how did you not transfer that to me? Yeah, he's, he's a guy and he's just really practical and he's like, well, because it didn't have anything to do with you. So anyway, we, and I said, what did you hope for? You know, I know what I hope for. I didn't need any more brothers, but I was hoping for a good relationship. And he said, yeah, I just, I just have hope for a good relationship and we've exceeded that. Wow, that was a neat, I'm glad I had both those conversations because those were things, you know, to find out.

[09:56] : Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's neat. So it just expanded. Expanded your family? Yeah, yeah. When I have two adopted kids that were siblings and my husband adopted them before we were married, they were six and eight, brother and sister. And Lenny wanted, just always wanted to be able to meet his mom. And so when he did have, we knew about where his aunt and uncle were, but we didn't know about where the mom was, and so he wanted her to come to his graduation. And so when I, my husband was able to contact the uncle and say, can you say if it would be all right or whatever like that, you know? And Lenny was just all excited, like, this is going to be his sister Mia, not so much. She did not want to have anything to do with it, didn't want us here, didn't want to have, you know, when she was a nervous wreck. And then what happened? They did come, you know, nobody thought about the fact that she would have maybe remarried or married. Who knows whether she was actually married the first time. I don't know, and have a couple of other little kids. So that was kind of like, oh, but you kept those, but you didn't get me, you know, so there was attitude going on, and then it became. And once Lenny met her, he could see why she couldn't have handled. She was having a hard time raising the other kids.

[11:34] Angie Clayton: Yeah. You know, there's so many. There's a lot of reasons. There's a lot of reasons why what.

[11:40] : Happened was that then she would contact him a lot, and then it was like, oh, how do I. How do I get out of this? Because I don't really want to have this relationship now. So that was a little awkward time, you know, as well, to do so. Yeah, there's different endings.

[11:57] Angie Clayton: Well, there is. And that's the whole process of the story is different for every single person. And, you know, it depends. There's a lot of factors involved. There's a lot of personalities involved. You know, we have, in my case, a mom who had never told anyone in her family. Literally not a single person knew I existed. And so. Yeah, so talk about, hey, family reunion, here I am. Guess who? You know.

[12:27] : Yeah. So she's secret all those years.

[12:30] Jackie Baker: That's. That's the culture. You hide your sin.

[12:33] Angie Clayton: Yeah. And it was. And I don't know. She's at the ages because of the time when this was. And the ages of they are then and now. It was never very comfortable for me in the bigger family, you know, settings. I always felt like I was somehow I had done something wrong is what it felt like to me, you know, that I was the one and. Yeah, so that was kind of hard. I mean, they weren't mean or anything like that. I just. There was just something that was uncomfortable.

[13:06] : Yeah, yeah, yeah. Jackie, you had an experience on the opposite side. Tell us about that.

[13:14] Jackie Baker: Was because I'm a birth mother, so I have given up two children for adoption. And, you know, I could go through my whole family history, how I got to that place. Long story. You know, I was. My grandmother was a teenage mother, single mom. My mom was the single. No, my mom was married. Well, she got married because she. It's funny stories because she. My grandmother caught my mom and dad having sex when they were 16, and so they lied and said I was pregnant. They were pregnant with me. And so this weird. So they had to get married, and then they had to prove their lie. And so then, then they got pregnant with me. So I. And then my father left my mother when she was pregnant with my brother. So she was 19 with two kids and a single mom, you know. Yeah, my. I mean, in fact, she was pregnant with my brother when I thought left for the woman that he's married to now, still married to. So then, you know, so I'm raised in a single home. I was first person in my family to graduate from high school, let alone go to college, let alone, you know, get out of the inner city of Buffalo, New York. Really poor family. And I always promised myself I would never be like my mom, you know? And then my mom died. I was 18. I had a massive stroke. She was 36. I was 18 and homeless and then found myself pregnant, you know, because I, you know, was reacting, you know, I was. I was a mess. I was a mess, you know, and.

[14:51] : You were looking for somebody to love you, right?

[14:54] Jackie Baker: Take care of me in this awful time. And, you know, the, the father was, you know, an earnest Christian, but, you know, we had, we had, we had our issues, you know? And so I find myself pregnant, and then I'm thinking, well, he's going to marry me, you know, because, you know, I'm 19. 

 

So I picked up everything I had, and I moved to Ohio where his family was, you know, with the idea that he was going to marry me. And then when I got there, it was not, I was not received well, let's say that, because it didn't go well. So I was counseled that I would either raise the child on my own, I was not going to be getting married to the father of the baby because they had deemed that, you know, the authorities around me had just said that, or I was going to place the baby for adoption. And I couldn't even think about adoption at that time. But I didn't want to be a single mom. And my grandmother was like, well, you can come back to Buffalo and I'll help you raise him. I'm like, no, I just, I didn't want to. I just could not do that. I just did not want to be the way my family was. And so I still hoped that they would, I'd still get married. And then I was, like, eight months pregnant. And I just really, it was one of the first time I heard the Lord talk to me in a visual way. It was kind of, like, audible way. And I was trying to make something for the baby from my daughter. And I heard was, you're going to hurt your baby. The way you were hurt. And I knew right then that I needed to place my daughter for adoption because I didn't have the tools. I didn't know how to parent because, you know, I mean, I was physically and sexually molested as a child. And that was my norm. You know, I watched my mother get beat up by her boyfriends and the police not intervening. You know, it was just that. It was just in the safe place. But that's what I knew. And so then I placed. I like to tell people, I wrote my memoir about this. It's like I was the doctor. I was the doctor's worst nightmare because I walked in, I had no prenatal care. I was, like, eight months pregnant when I saw my doctor the first time. So I was a mess, had hypertension. But the Lord brought this family that took me in, and they got me maternity clothes. And I remember sneakers, brand new sneakers. They got me glasses. I mean, I didn't have anything. And took me to all my prenatal appointments and were with me when I delivered my baby. And so I placed my daughter for adoption. I didn't get to hold her. It was closed adoption as well at that time.

 And at that point, you were the.

[17:41] Jan: And at that point, you were the answer to their prayers, right?

[17:43] Jackie Baker: Yeah. And so I met the family. So it was called a pseudo open. No, no, no. Yeah, it was a pseudo open adoption, meaning it was with the lutheran community services. And they were like, you have to know the family to do it through a lawyer. And, oh, the other thing was, I was. They wanted back up the. I was told they wanted me to go on edwed mother's home, and I refused. I was like, I am. I'm not the only person involved in this. I don't know what I was thinking, but I was like, I refuse to be sent to an unwed mother's home. I was very stubborn, but I was.

[18:21] Angie Clayton: You know, I can’t blame you from the stories that I've heard. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[18:27] Jackie Baker: So, yeah, I think God protected me there. So I was in the hospital for ten days, and when I was in the hospital, I couldn't. I couldn't hold my baby. I couldn't see her. A volunteer dropped off photos on the bed for me to see the bedside stand. And that was the first time I saw what my daughter looked like and was through a picture. And I stole one. You know, they came back and they're like, oh, we're sorry, you weren't supposed to have these because, you know, it always made you feel guilty and shameful and. But I did steal one and I still have that photo. And so. And then I made the father of the baby. He came and visited me. I made him. I said, I want to see my daughter. So they rolled me. It will be down in a wheelchair. And I could see through the glass window back then. And they held her up and showed me to her. And then. And I remember the nurse coming out and saying, you know, you can't love her like you want, and we're loving her for you. And I just lost it.

[19:23] Angie Clayton: Yeah.

[19:23] Jackie Baker: So then I left the hospital, and she did. Yep. So. So then I wasn't allowed to grieve. You know, I. I was told to get a job, and I went back to school.

[19:32] : Act like nothing even happened.

[19:35] Jackie Baker: Nothing happened. No, nobody knew. I mean, the school didn't even know that I had gotten pregnant because I was pregnant. I was going to get kicked out of college. They knew I was pregnant. I wore big sweatshirts. And so then I went back to school. I took a semester off, you know, because I was hoping to have her, like, September 4, because school started September 16. That was my brain. I was, you know, not thinking. I was just trying to survive. So she came September 17, and then I missed going back to school till January, but I went right back, but didn't grieve until years later. And then fast forward a few years, thought I had my life altogether, ended up pregnant again. But, you know, the Lord was working on. By this time, I was in therapy and trying to figure out all these life choices that I was making. And then I knew at that I still wasn't ready to be a mom, even though I was professionally. I was a nurse. I was a Navy nurse. I would have had all the support systems. I could have done it. But I still wanted better for both of my girls. And so. But the difference was, I held my second daughter. That was my stipulation. I was going to hold her for 24 hours. And I did. I held her. I wanted to nurse her. I just couldn't do that. And then my girlfriends all came and sat with me, and we cried and cried while I held her. And then we had an adoption ceremony where I had picked out the family, and we had a service, and I handed my daughter to this family to raise my daughter. So, yeah, so two totally different ways of dealing with that. But the church was with me. I mean, they. My pastor was there. He gave a sermon that he talked about that, how God has adopted us as his children. And then, you know, so it was a very well done, you know, I thought, yeah, so, yeah, I never said like, that.

[21:26] : That is really. Yeah, yeah.

[21:28] Jackie Baker: No, I'm your.

[21:30] : I don't get.

[21:32] Jackie Baker: I'm not your typical birth mother. So, you know, it's interesting, but, you know, it's interesting. 

 

Both of my daughters now one on Facebook found me. I knew when I signed up on Facebook that someone was going to find me. I figured my second daughter, because that was an open when I placed them for adoption. So it wasn't my choice to find them. They needed to find me if they wanted to. And so I knew. That's why I said I relinquished them into God's hand. And I just prayed for them that, you know, that we'd be raised and God would take care of them that I. Because I couldn't. And so I didn't feel like, you know, I've heard people, my life was incomplete until I found my child, you know, but I just didn't look at it that way. I looked at it. It was like this was a choice I made for the better for my child. And I didn't want to mess with their birth order, their life, you know what I mean? Unless they wanted that. So both my daughters found me, you know? Yeah.

[22:30] : Yeah. And so one year, did you go to meet here or you on your way to meet your second daughter?

[22:39] Jackie Baker: Well, my first one. So I met my oldest daughter last year. And that was like a total God thing because I said I didn't want to. I did not want to. Yeah. So I did my DNA testing, but I never released it because I didn't want it to be, you know, skewed so that someone can find me. I mean, it had to be totally God. So my nephew contacted me and he said, hey, Jackie. And he tells me about this girl he found. Cousin. He's like a close cousin. Cause at first he thought maybe his father had, you know, done this. And I said, no, that's my daughter. And he's like, what? And so my brother had said, well, if you gave her up for adoption, she didn't count. I mean, that was the way my family dealt with this. And so I said, no, that's my daughter. And he goes, because she looks just like you. There you go. You know, it's like. It's spitting image. And so I did what every person who does is like, can you show me her Facebook page? So I wanted to see what, you know, and it was very sweet and everything, but I wasn't going to contact her unless she wanted to contact me. And he said, well, it's all right if I let her know. I said, yeah, let her. My nephew can just let her know, and that's her decision. And then, so she made that decision. And so then we talked for, like, 4 hours on Zoom the first time, and then we've been talking for a year. In fact, we just talked this past Tuesday. And then on Sunday, I'm going to Ohio to meet her in person for the first time in 42 years. So I'm keeping my expectations low. I got to be good. I have plan B's and plan C's and plays, and I. I come bearing.

[24:20] Angie Clayton: Gifts, so, you know, I think one of the weirdest things for me when I met, you know, birth family is that there's really no rules. There's not even a name for the kind of relationship we have with each.

[24:32] : Other, because what you call them, you know.

[24:34] Angie Clayton: Right. Like that.

[24:36] Jackie Baker: Yeah.

[24:36] Angie Clayton: She goes, it was. I never called her. I mean, I guess because I was old. I never. She's not my mom to me, which means her to me, but she's special. She was special to me, you know, in way beyond just, like, she's not my friend. And so, I mean, it is just a really tricky thing that people who aren't inside of adoption probably don't ever think about.

[24:58] Jackie Baker: Yeah. And she. And we had talked about that because she's like, she, you know, because she was struggling with that Sarah, who I'm going to meet, and I'm like, she goes, but we can be friends. I'm like, totally. We can totally be your friend. I said, I am not there to replace your mother because your mother raised you, and I entrusted her in, you know, you into her care.

[25:18] Angie Clayton: So making it easy for them. You're making it easy for them. Good for you. Yeah.

[25:22] Jackie Baker: And it's. It is all about that. In fact, and in similar things, she has not told her mother that we're meeting, and she said, she goes, I want us to have this relationship for about a year and a half, and then, so that my mom knows that everything is still fine between us, you know, I mean. I mean, that she's not. That I'm not a threat. I get it. I don't totally get it. Yeah. And that said, that's. I said, whatever you want to do.

[25:43] Angie Clayton: You know, and so it's hard because you don't want to hurt. Yeah, it is really hard. And, you know, we all. The stigma, we've talked a lot about stigmas today, and you had stigma as a, you know, whatever year that was not only one baby, but all the works do.

[26:01] Jackie Baker: All right, Josh. Talk about suicidal thought second time.

[26:07] Angie Clayton: Look at what you have come out of. And you did not repeat that. You did not repeat that. Yeah. And, you know, I'm a. I lived in the same house my entire life, you know, from. I guess they built it when I was 18 months old. Stable, solid. Parents are still together. They just passed their 63rd wedding anniversary.

[26:27] : Oh.

[26:27] Angie Clayton: So I got. I mean, okay, yeah, there's. We're a family, so.

[26:31] Jackie Baker: Right.

[26:31] Angie Clayton: I'm not going to be any illusions that it's perfect, because not. But it was a much better place for me than it would have been had she kept.

[26:42] Jackie Baker: Oh, yeah. And we talked about my. Sarah and I, because she's like, we can't do the what ifs. I know. I go. We cannot go there because I would tell you. I said, you would not be where you are today. I mean, she has graduated from college. She has her master's in English. Yeah, talk about genetics. I mean, you know, we're like. We like, we both sew costumes. They both love english literature. We both have cats. It's just. And you see my daughter, Isabel, my youngest, who I have with my husband, like, if you put all my daughters together in a room, we all look alike, we all act alike. We have the same quirks. It's. It is hilarious.

[27:19] Angie Clayton: Isn't it wild? It was so wild. Yeah. You're like, I've never known you.

[27:25] Jackie Baker: Yeah. So. So much for environment versus genetic, right? Yeah.

[27:29] Angie Clayton: Fascinating question for you and I, isn't it?

[27:32] Jackie Baker: Yeah, yeah, it's very cool. And then she wanted to know about medical history, especially mental health issues. And I'm like, well, you know, so, you know, so. We all have mental health issues, don't we? But, yeah, so. But, yeah, so I. And I have three grandchildren that I know. I'm gonna go meet my grandchildren. And I know him as Jackie, you know, I mean, because she said she's not ready to go with grand. I said, that's okay, as long as you know. But she said, but they are your grandchildren. And she's. She's acknowledged that to me because I, you know, which was very sweet of her.

[28:02] Angie Clayton: So she's in a precarious position. I mean, I'm identifying with her big time. And, I mean, I get every single thing you've said that she's doing or.

[28:13] Jackie Baker: Not doing, and I'm letting her lead. I'm totally. I said, you know, I said the only thing I wanted to do is, like, if have. Our meeting is just the two of us without her, you know, her children. Just so that, like that, I go, it's going to be very emotional. I am anticipating it's going to be, you know, and so I said, I would just like that for the two of us. And then, you know, then it's fair game, whatever, right? Yeah. So, yeah, so when I was.

[28:39] : Well, yeah, and I was 19, I got pregnant, and the birth dad was from Chicago. I was living in Arizona, went to Arizona state, and he went back to Chicago. I find out I'm pregnant. I call him on the payphone back in the day, and, you know, he said, well, I. It could have been anybody's. It's not going to be that. I'm thinking, oh, it wasn't anybody else, you know, so, you know, I had to decide what I was going to do. I never, ever thought a portion was an option for me. And so I put that aside. I did go to an attorney just to talk about it. Adoption and what I told my mom, she says, you're not going to give that baby up. You're not going to be able to give up that baby. And I thought, oh, okay. Well, so I did single parented for five years, you know, strong, independent woman that I was and did things. And now as an adult, you know, after my first husband died, there was some things that, because of his being paralyzed and his brain tumor and whatever that he placed on to Nick is that the relationship ended up being kind of skewed. And so after he died, there was just. He started just kind of going his own way and doing things. And so now as an adult, because he's 51 now, and he. He had had a relationship with me for a while. He was into all kinds of crazy, icky things that happened and whatever, and. But restored somewhat of a relationship to where we were kind of getting along. And then stuff happened. And now I don't. He doesn't talk to me at all. So, you know, along the line, I'm thinking, you know, if I'd adopted him out, he might have wanted to find his mom.

[30:42] Angie Clayton: Oh, yeah. All the way around in those slow moments. Right?

[30:48] : You don't know.

[30:49] Jackie Baker: I mean, there's no guarantees in life, is it? No matter what choice you make. You know? I know. I remember being with my, with Sarah, you know, looking at it was like a horrible meeting with the parents, my boyfriend at the time, his parents, because they had asked, are you sure he's the father? You know, I just feeling horrible that they would even ask that, you know? I know. And it's just like your son, you know, does no wrong. But, yeah, yeah, but anyway, you know, that's what it was. And I remember going home and opening the yellow pages and looking up for abortion clinic because it was, you know, so it was in the eighties. What was it? Yeah, 82, 81, 82. So abortion is just. Was legal, you know, and. And I remember just looking at those, you know, thinking, I could just go and do this and I'd be done and no one would have to know. I mean, you know, some people. But then I could just disappear and go back to school, and I just could not do it, you know, I just. I couldn't do it, you know? And then I just thought, well, okay, you know, and. But, yeah, I know, but we're all. But when we're in those situations, you. I mean, that's our reality, is that.

[32:01] Angie Clayton: We mean, my daughter was born when I was 18. I was. I got married when I was 17. I was not pregnant, but I could have been, you know, and I was a foolish choice to get married that young. But that's where my two kiddos came from.

[32:15] Jackie Baker: Thought about when we're 18 and 19, right?

[32:17] Angie Clayton: Yeah, yeah, right. Oh, my goodness, those two. If I could have those years back.

[32:21] Jackie Baker: Oh, I know.

[32:21] Angie Clayton: Yeah. You know, we should do a whole thing on shame and guilt and regret about the difference between those, because that's how to do your show, Dan.

[32:31] : But that would be a cool thing, conversations to have.

[32:34] Jan: Absolutely.

[32:34] : Definitely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, ladies, this has been really good. And really, I think, rich, it's a great two subjects. Diverse, but just so gonna touch, apologize.

[32:53] Jackie Baker: That I have two hearts. I know when I was the writing conference and like, yeah, I don't write about light, you know, I write about these heavy things.

[33:00] Angie Clayton: You know, you were mad to me because. Same for me. I give my book, I'm like, it's not a happy book, but my happy book, it's a good book, right?

[33:11] Jackie Baker: My memo car is called the Birth Pains because it's about, you know, placing my daughters for adoption and how God is good in the, you know. And then my second one is like, all messy morning and, you know, grieving, and I'm just like, yes.

[33:24] Angie Clayton: Yeah. And mine's peering into the tunnel and outsiders looking gritty. Right? Yeah, converse. Pretty. But the.

[33:31] Jackie Baker: Yeah, I want to write romance next.

[33:34] : That's why I went to writing romance after I wrote my memoir, because I needed something fun to do, you know.

[33:41] Jackie Baker: I'm like, I want to write cat stories. That's right.

[33:43] : No, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Well, ladies, I appreciate this time that you spent with us. This is. Well, thank you for inviting me. I was going to say fun. I don't know if it was fun. It was.

[33:56] Jackie Baker: It was fun.

[33:57] : It was a good conversation.

[33:59] Jackie Baker: It was good conversation. Yeah. God is good, right? God is good.

[34:03] : Through it all, we know that God is good. And we know that not only did.

[34:06] Jan: He have plans for us, he had.

[34:08] : Plans for our kids.

[34:09] Jackie Baker: That's right. And he is in. That's why we have to release them. He only gives them to us for a short time. Because they're his, right? They're not ours.

[34:21] Jan: Two different stories. One of being adopted, one of choosing to let others adopt their children, both with their own struggles with identity. But God, the one who formed us in our mother's womb, who knew us from the beginning, who sings over us, what could be better than that? That God holds us tightly in his arms and loves us through and through. We may encounter divine detours along life's paths. And though they don't always travel the way we think they're going to, we know that God orchestrates our lives. We may go one direction, but he still knows the ultimate desires of our hearts and is there to heal and direct and show us our identity in him. Thanks friend, for listening. Would you consider leaving a review? It's easy. Just give a sentence or two of how this podcast is impacting your life or what your takeaways have been. It would mean so much to me. I'll leave you with these scriptures. Ephesians 210 for we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus. Jeremiah one five before I formed you in the womb, I knew you. Before you were born, I set you apart. Blessings, my friend. Next week we will hear part two of the Angie and Jackie duo sharing this time about suicide and grief. Until then.